Why hasn't Shaolin Monk training been embraced by MMA fighters? (VIDEO)

[shinkyoku]

The vast majority of what is taught in modern day Shaolin is performance wushu aka circus de soleil and some Sanda. The cultural revolution effectively saw and end to the temple and then the government revived it with that nonsense due to tourist interest.

They literally commandeered random monks from wherever they could find them to the temple, for window-dressing. Then they ordered a bunch of theatre wushu showmen there, to impress the foolish.
A bunch of stray kungfu practitioners of varying skill and seriousness set up shop around the temple, and the tourist has kept going there in droves ever since.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

It’s 2019 and people still believe this bs

 

[Jack Stevonovich]

Dude the fact the military trains special ops units for a long time has nothing to do with the subject. I'd still take the MMA fighter in H2H because they also train for years, but only in H2H not in 50 other things that take equal amountsnof their time. Classified or not, if the combatives training is done like your videos with prewritten moves and no sparring, it won't be effective.



Lol the dude who complains when people are insulting starts throwing insults. I've only responded or asked clarification on your posts, so if derailing is occuring it is probably yours.
So again, you are dead wrong calling Shaolin Taoists, and you have stated that Shaolin monks that don't really train with sparring will kill an MMA fighter in a life or death situation but you can't say how. You shouldn't make these claims if you won't even attempt to back them up, and if you say factually incorrect things like Shaolin Taoists expect to get called on it.

He's a troll dude. In fact it is because of @FighterTwister in particular that I have come to have an understanding of what a troll is.

I am not sure if he became a troll because he developed out of troll culture and decided to troll sherdog or if it is something that develops naturally out of wing chun never spar because it is too deadly logic or it is some sort of mental disorder he developed in the vein of sociopathy. I think it is probably some sort of combination of the above.

He plays the victim and the bastion of hope for traditional martial arts then he goes on to promote the very reason why they died are disappearing and became watered down in the first place as something we all fail to understand then promotes their effectiveness in real life combat as something we have no comprehension of.

He has a couple points in that martial arts descend from real combat situations and many won't work in an MMA fight. He completely fails to understand why though and I am not sure if it is because of his blind faith to wing chun logic or because wing chun logic gives him an excuse to troll others. I really think it is the latter.

When you apply troll logic to his behavior it starts to make sense what he is doing which is baiting people with promoting martial arts that have become watered down to the point of LARPing as being too deadly for MMA on an MMA forum because it is triggering then when you explain to him why that is he then knows you are triggered so he's developed circular logic to be able to just continue to trigger you under the pretenses of you attacking him. That way when someone that comes along that appreciates aspects of TMA he can get them on his side as if you are attacking TMA even if you are defending them and explaining to him why he is wrong. Once you point that out he will verbally attack you as ignorant to bait you into explaining the point he isn't understanding to him. If he cared about martial arts he would learn that point or would already understand it. Traditional Martial Arts is just a pretense for him to troll people because he is probably a sociopath who feeds on triggering others as a source of narcissistic supply.

 

[ocean size]

It’s 2019 and people still believe this bs

It's kinda nostalgic. It reminds me of usenet groups in the early 2000s. MMA wasn't well known, BJJ was just spreading in the US. People would constantly debate Tank Abbot vs Bruce Lee, and some thought that there were mystical monks out there that the UFC wouldn't let fight because they
they were too skilled and dangerous. After a while with plenty of evidence at the fingertips most people realised they've been sold bullshit.

20 years on, despite all the evidence available at ones fingertips, there are still are a few true believers even today...

He's a troll dude. In fact it is because of @FighterTwister in particular that I have come to have an understanding of what a troll is.

I am not sure if he became a troll because he developed out of troll culture and decided to troll sherdog or if it is something that develops naturally out of wing chun never spar because it is too deadly logic or it is some sort of mental disorder he developed in the vein of sociopathy. I think it is probably some sort of combination of the above.

I don't believe he's intentionally trolling 4chan style, I think he's just so wrapped up in a long time fascination with mythical mystical TMA effectiveness in a world with plenty of evidence to the contrary that it's become a fragile part of his identity/ego.

You can tell because he wants to put it out there but doesn't want to be challenged or defend his points- he replies without tagging you sometimes seemingly to try and escape a response. While I've been blunt I haven't been personally rude, yet he starts throwing out ad hominems instead of actually defending his case.

I'd love to actually debate the facts though: I'm just waiting to hear of a TMA that would defeat MMA that isn't confined to a ruleset. I.E. what art can train people to eye gouge, air choke, small digit manipulate, soccer kick etc. better than MMA style training can? Specifically, how can you possibly get proficient at that kind of stuff without being able to spar/practice a toned down version of those techniques for many hours. How can you even judge the efficacy of the technique? I can definitely envision some rebuttals to these questions.

 

[FighterTwister]

Will join chat later, just cant hold it together laughing so much....

 

[FighterTwister]

. Even the Thai have military version of mauy Thai . North Korean MA forced South Korea to changes it MA program after NK commando took it 3 ROK soldiers quickly. It’s called Tukong Moosul

In the hope to better convey my opinion and yep they are my opinions, the above video is actually a poor representation of Lerdrit (Military Muay Thai), I think you and I will like this video below more.






Thats the stuff I like and respect in any Martial Art Style even to just train day in day out, awesome, love it!


There is probably even better demonstrations of "Lerdrit (Military Muay Thai)" more info here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lerdrit

So as you can see its completely different use of techniques and applications compared to a sport orientated martial art ...................and that is my point to sum up the thread by the way folks! .........carry on if you must.

Any Martial Arts in the sense of its original intention in the hands of a good willing practitioner with good attitude and aptitude would be awesome to watch even as a demo.

Its obviously to much for people in this Forum or modern age going by online discussions, lacking in maturity to be able to have an in-depth great conversation due to ignorance and an unwillingness to listen with an open mind, sadly missed opportunities.

I grew up learning and training with guys from various martial arts so its why I favor what is now called Military versions of TMA's compared to the combat sports of today or watered-down, white-washed mcdojos of today.

Its great for kids but not the same stuff that was taught back in the 60-90's.

Well I try to help individuals see what they could learn and embracing new skills rather than just combat sport techniques and applications as there is so much more, other than sport combat which is not my cup of tea and simply not the same, fact like it or not!

Although like I said many times to watch a UFC / MMA match hey its fun many make a living but apples and oranges when we discuss as mentioned above thats the point of difference, where many lack understanding.

Maybe thats clearer or maybe it goes over and not respected makes no difference to me just saying!

 

[JKD sanda]

In the hope to better convey my opinion and yep they are my opinions, the above video is actually a poor representation of Lerdrit (Military Muay Thai), I think you and I will like this video below more.






Thats the stuff I like and respect in any Martial Art Style even to just train day in day out, awesome, love it!


There is probably even better demonstrations of "Lerdrit (Military Muay Thai)" more info here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lerdrit

So as you can see its completely different use of techniques and applications compared to a sport orientated martial art ...................and that is my point to sum up the thread by the way folks! .........carry on if you must.

Any Martial Arts in the sense of its original intention in the hands of a good willing practitioner with good attitude and aptitude would be awesome to watch even as a demo.

Its obviously to much for people in this Forum or modern age going by online discussions, lacking in maturity to be able to have an in-depth great conversation due to ignorance and an unwillingness to listen with an open mind, sadly missed opportunities.

I grew up learning and training with guys from various martial arts so its why I favor what is now called Military versions of TMA's compared to the combat sports of today or watered-down, white-washed mcdojos of today.

Its great for kids but not the same stuff that was taught back in the 60-90's.

Well I try to help individuals see what they could learn and embracing new skills rather than just combat sport techniques and applications as there is so much more, other than sport combat which is not my cup of tea and simply not the same, fact like it or not!

Although like I said many times to watch a UFC / MMA match hey its fun many make a living but apples and oranges when we discuss as mentioned above thats the point of difference, where many lack understanding.

Maybe thats clearer or maybe it goes over and not respected makes no difference to me just saying!

. I hear what your saying , it’s just some ppl believe what they see and hear that this way or that way is the way . I do not ! no one style is a for sure victory.
I try to stay respectful to all MA and open minded . But you talking to someone who follows JKD philosophy . I’m look at/for techniques that simple and that work . I believe in sparring light/hard it’s a most . Training your techniques is most to perfection and your body . Sport fighting is great way to pressure test your self but I’m not into point fighting at all . I believe what may work for you , but not for me . I all see all of as artists cause that’s MA . We should all be open to hearing what each other’s says and share ideas . MA is more that just whoop ass. It has to values and principles and the techniques and training to whoop ass when needed.
Mind you I don’t believe in Origami death touch bs MA . Sport fighters can easily cross over to military/self defense MA . Just like a TMA can cross over to sport. Mma is techniques take from various TMA . Ma should be more interested in the roots of MA not the decorative branches , flowed or leaves it’s futile to argue as to which single leaf , a design of branch or which attractive leaf you like . When you understand the root . You’ll understand it all it’d blossoming.I hope this makes sense

 

[ocean size]

it's become a fragile part of his identity/ego.

You can tell because he wants to put it out there but doesn't want to be challenged or defend his points- he replies without tagging you sometimes seemingly to try and escape a response.

Very next post:

Will join chat later, just cant hold it together laughing so much....

Thanks for demonstrating.

...................

So as you can see its completely different use of techniques and applications compared to a sport orientated martial art

In that demo video, the only difference in those techniques and MMA techniques:

• scorpion kick - flashy move you probably won't see in MMA because it doesn't have a great connecting rate and takes you out of position
• A couple 12-6 elbows
• Three neck breaks - all on an opponent that was already incapacitated

The rest of the techniques you would most certainly see in MMA. Any MMA fighter would be happy and proficient with the 12-6 if rules were removed, and breaking necks can't be trained anyway unless you have a supply of corpses to crank on. So not a very good example of why TMA is superior and more deadly than MMA style training.

I'll make the point for you that would have actually supported your point rather than a video of flashy techniques: In real Thai military training they are taught to target groins, eyes and the throat.

But to get proficient at these things, they have to spending a lot of time basic mechanics of the strikes in a simulated live situation - sparring - with protective equipment and a 'ruleset' so they won't maim each other. If they didn't spar and they just kicked a dummy in the nuts and poked its eyes, they would not be very capable fighters.

So again, the bulk of any useful (in combat) martial arts training is sparring. Since you can't kill each other in sparring, the 'ruleset' is limited.. essentially MMA training. If a TMA doesn't incorporate a good amount of training that is more or less consistent with MMA or a subset of it, the training can't happen with aliveness, which means the TMA can't teach you how to fight effectively.

As I said before, for a "real combat" situation:
the MMA guy who for years has been learning distance control, footwork, handspeed, not telegraphing, timing based on an opponent, and jab mechanics based on live sparring just has to stick out his fingers to turn all those skills into an effective eye attack.

The TMA guy who's art only does 'deadly techniques' they can't spar knows know how to eyepoke the air, but will be clueless about the rest of how to make it successful on a live, resisting opponent (although he might have good handspeed from years of punching air)

I'd be really happy for you to support your points that I am refuting or tell me why I am wrong instead of saying that no one here is mature enough to have a discussion. So tell me - how can an art teach proficiency with 'deadly techniques' banned from MMA unless they spar with less deadly versions? Do you think you can get combat proficient with low speed, choreographed moves like you keep posting? You could have answered it long ago when I asked you to support your claim a Shaolin Monk that doesn't spar will finish an MMA fighter in "real combat".

 

[FighterTwister]

@ocean size

READ SUCK IT UP AND READ AND READ AGAIN.............. http://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/what-s-the-difference-between-ufc-and-mma.html

Another one for you........ https://www.ufc.com/about/sport

 

[FighterTwister]

This why MA need change and return back to its original purpose combatives. I’m not saying a MA will be effective but many could be instead of water down version many see today . Yes sport fighting is different than combatives . but similar as long real sparring involved and training if that makes since

After watching that video again I just wanted say that the UFC officials and the medical board will never have clearance or approval and insurance even a valid licence to sponsor sanctioned fights. Because of the intent and nature or type of injury inflicted in a sport event due to old methods or traditional methods and applications of training.

It will never be the case and it already is very brutal, the referee alone has much responsibility in overseeing that certain techniques are not used or go past a certain point where severe injury or death can occur.

This is what I’m saying to so many here who stubbornly resist, sport is not the same as TMA training.

Good video but it won’t mean anything or change official rules of UFC sport competition again because of medical clearance if people start dieing due to brutal strikes while it’s being televised globally.

I just can’t fathom, entertain the idea that the UFC officials would pass and be allowed to draw up fighter contracts where death waivers are permissible under law and agreed to.

So it’s on those grounds and conditions it’s a no from what I understand having read a UFC contract. In fact I actually see UFC becoming more stringent on legality of what can and cannot be done to ensure safety and preservation of life under constitutional state laws or other responsible governing bodies overseeing sport events.

In TMA we used light sparring or drills to learn the idea / concept of the technique over and over again until it’s a part of your reflex or instinctive action motor muscle memory.

Techniques again do vary from what are sport applications to actually inflict damaging and severe injury like pressure point holds, joint locks, break bone and even worse that l just won’t mention.

Classes were from 6.00pm to 10.30pm at least three days a week some places offer more days these days you usually pay for 1hr @ $100, I use to pay no more than $10 lol

The design or class syllabus is essentially a development path to many things including conditioning, weaponry etc very different than learning mma sport combat arts.

Things have changed that’s for sure.

 

[BillytheFish]

Oh dear me, are you implying I have no commonsense, why? do you really think i am stupid and was born yesterday.

If a lucky punch connects to a jawline and sparks out after hyper-extension its lights out, we all know that!

However TMA or in modern terms military application martial art training would mean a complete different approach to a fight and intent and application of techniques and that includes the fact that its a hard thing to do not some sparring or UFC match but hard survival tactics or die on the battlefield.

Hard to explain online but you got to respect the difference if you don't that is a very arrogant and ignorant understanding of the Martial Arts, and disrespectful to say the least!

I found these videos to somewhat illustrate some of the intents and differences, of course these are demos they wouldn't film real combat footage would they.

So watch and at least respect the difference.............

NO GLOVES, NO SHIN PADS, NO REFEREE LOL

These videos don't show much only a glimpse by definition only a mere look at the training and willingness to undergo intense training and real life combat threat and readiness.

These guys are commandos, special forces, elite soldiers, special secret agents trained in martial arts with many skills and abilities.

Its not a sport once you enlist to take upon such responsibilities in this chosen career in Military Special Forces as an example.

So why would anyone think UFC/MMA is equal to this makes me laugh!

UFC/MMA is all an illusion for entertainment, reality is much, much more violent and takes a certain type of person to go the distance to be an elite Special Forces Soldier, many don't cut the mustard some spew up on the first training day, some just don't have what it takes when they need to move, they freeze and fail and resign from the training course.

I hope I have helped to at least clear what are the differences of a sport and real combat.

Interesting discussion regardless.

Lol here is the truth. I was in the royal marines and had several friends on the display team. It is PURELY a recruiting thing- hence it being called the 'display' team. Guys used to sign up for a year of it when they're bored of tours so they could do these shows during the day and travel around and fuck girls in different cities daily. The first few months they practice all of the choreographing (as well as lots of weights...the public wants to see six pacs and biceps). Then they tour for the next 8 or 9 months in schools and stuff to get people to join up in the long run.

It is utter utter shite, but fun for the guys on the teams because it is a party posting. We never ever did that gay shit at a commando unit.

 

[ocean size]

@ocean size

READ SUCK IT UP AND READ AND READ AGAIN.............. http://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/what-s-the-difference-between-ufc-and-mma.html

Another one for you........ https://www.ufc.com/about/sport

Why are you dodging my questions and passive aggressively mentioning me in other posts? What happened to you wanting to have a 'mature discussion'?
Why did you tell me to read 'the difference between ufc and mma'?

Seriously, are you trolling?

 

[FighterTwister]

Why are you dodging my questions and passive aggressively mentioning me in other posts? What happened to you wanting to have a 'mature discussion'?
Why did you tell me to read 'the difference between ufc and mma'?

Seriously, are you trolling?

I am actually just reply chatting with your last post since you and others have been very eager and forceful with your views in changing mine.

Funny you and the other 3-4 fellos call me a troll, I actually see you and the others doing that you know, because in every post I have made or replied to you guys track my posts and start with the whole MMA+Sparring+Reality nonsense thing, and derailing mostly every thread since I starting posting here.

Did I create the thread NO but you have dragged the entire thread with nonsense, you and the other 3or4 fellos simply won't accept and respect the simple fact i share different views from a TMA perspective thats who I am and what I like.

Also you guys simply don't accept the facts, sure have an opinion but when someone is telling you there is a difference one is a sport and one is a heck of allot more serious take it for what it is or at least back off from targeting my opinion on the matter.

A TROLL by definition is - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling

So maybe now you and the others finally see or will at least let others have an opinion of their own without making drama or derailing the thread with your insisting views that we or I must succumb to out of what bullying harrsing, tracking and down threads.

Its about manners I do not track your threads down please abide by the same manners.

Just enjoy the forum ocean size

Cheers

 

[BillytheFish]

Also you guys simply don't accept the facts, sure have an opinion but when someone is telling you there is a difference one is a sport and one is a heck of allot more serious take it for what it is or at least back off from targeting my opinion on the matter.

Since you think your information is factual...are you not going to reply about me calling out your bullshit on the royal marines commando display team then...?

 

[FighterTwister]

Keep at it, wear yourself out does nothing but ruin what could be good informative threads rather than a good tug of war

 

[ocean size]

Its about manners I do not track your threads down please abide by the same manners.

Just enjoy the forum ocean size

Cheers

Dude - you went into a thread titled "Why hasn't Shaolin Monk training been embraced by MMA fighters?" and made claims like 'Shaolin monks would finish MMA fighters in real combat'. You should expect some replies when you do that.

If you don't want to discuss, maybe don't say several times that you were hoping for discussion, I didn't think my question was too 'harassing' when I asked you how a Shaolin monk could beat an MMA fighter or how you can get good at techniques without sparring non-lethal versions.

This current thread has an open question for debate that you weighed in on. You have to shit or get off the pot on forums - you can't weigh in on a debate (be on the toilet) and then refuse to engage with someone (not poop) and complain just because someone else takes another position in the debate.

I am not 'tracking your threads down' - I replied to the OP before I even saw your post.

All the other TMA people here seem to have interesting conversations with MMA enthusiasts etc. so it's not like there is an anti-TMA bias. But it seems like of the whole TMA crowd you are the most insistent with your opinion yet the least willing to discuss your 'facts' when someone has a different view.

 

[BillytheFish]

Keep at it, wear yourself out does nothing but ruin what could be good informative threads rather than a good tug of war

still waiting.

 

[FighterTwister]

Are you insisting again to open a discussion, okay.

I have tried to convey a personal view or opinion on things I have learned understood and about Chinese Martial Arts all given that we don't have two willing fighters here to produce a result on our funny chat so its all make believe given or based on certain facts for grounds to an opinion.

By the way first how old are you?

What is your background in Martial Arts?

 

[FighterTwister]

still waiting.

I dont have a clue who you are or what your background is or if there is any military record at all LoL you could be trolling how would I know, what on a internet post hahaha.

However from past teachers I have met many in military do cover many TMA's not just one.

Many have extensive training on weaponry, tactics, management, conditioning, sensitivity the list goes on covering a wide area of training and operational commanding positions very extensive training over many years not including basic training.

I have read some BIO's but not all is disclosed of course but good reads none the less and interesting careers not for me though, I always wanted to be in the USAF as a combat pilot on F-16s or F-18s life took another path married two kids and now I act like Bruce Lee in my home studio LOL

So whats your point you thought you were going to deter my opinion or at least my experiences and understanding of TMA's LoL you wish hahaha

Not even electric shocks could drive that out <Lmaoo>

 

[FighterTwister]

"Why hasn't Shaolin Monk training been embraced by MMA fighters?" .

As for you @ocean size you really need to meditate at least for the entire weekend on the above statement like this.............

Consider each and every word in the thread title and embrace your inner self and face it with honesty!