Why even have elections?

[Prokofievian]

Why not have a lottery like the ancient Athenians? There are some common arguments against this approach that I don't find very convincing. The first is that since sortition does not discriminate while voters do, voting will lead to better candidates in office. To which I can only respond



Another counter argument is that since candidates aren't elected, they're not accountable to their constituency. At least in the United States, approval of congress is absolutely terrible and yet turnover within the members of congress is almost 0. Accountability? Please.

On the other hand, some of the biggest problems with the current political system are simply not even coherent ideas within sortition. For example, gerrymandering can no longer exist. Corruption and lobbying are non-sensical given that the person you're lobbying isn't running for election. Moreover, members of congress/parliament can't be muscled by industry in their constituency by threatening to move jobs elsewhere, since again, they're not running for election.

So again, if power corrupts, why have corruptible offices? Why have elections?

 

[HockeyBjj]

Stupid thread is stupid

 

[Rygu]

Or just have legitimate elections where all adult legal citizens of said country vote and whoever wins, wins.

 

[Rational Poster]

Or just have legitimate elections where all adult legal citizens of said country vote and whoever wins, wins.

So what you're saying is Hillary should have won because she had millions more votes.

 

[Rygu]

So what you're saying is Hillary should have won because she had millions more votes.

Where did I say that?

 

[Rational Poster]

Where did I say that?

In the post I quoted.

 

[Rygu]

In the post I quoted.

Let me check my original post.

Nope, didn't say that.

 

[Rational Poster]

Let me check my original post.

Nope, didn't say that.

Yeah you did but you didn't realize it.

 

[all caps]

I agree with OP

 

[Trotsky]

Corruption and lobbying are non-sensical given that the person you're lobbying isn't running for election.

I take issue with his proposition, as it's the same one used for congressional term limits (on which I am undecided).

What you are proposing might limit the long-term power of corruption or make lobbying more costly since initial expenditures cannot be suffered for long-term influence, but corruption and lobbying (i.e. bribing of public officials) would occur nevertheless: the officials would still want money and power. As far as the democratic deterrence to said corruption? There, I agree with you that it's completely negligible, and that the average voter is not sophisticated enough to deter it.

 

[Rygu]

Yeah you did but you didn't realize it.

Your comprehension leaves much to be desired.

 

[JonesBones]

Because plebs want their perception of power. Don't take it away.

Representation and democracy are useless tautologies which negate causality and responsibility.

“What is the cause of historical events? Power. What is power? Power is the sum total of wills transferred to one person. On what condition are the willso fo the masses transferred to one person? On condition that the person express the will of the whole people. That is, power is power. That is, power is a word the meaning of which we do not understand. ”

― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

 

[Prokofievian]

I take issue with his proposition, as it's the same one used for congressional term limits (on which I am undecided).

What you are proposing might limit the long-term power of corruption or make lobbying more costly since initial expenditures cannot be suffered for long-term influence, but corruption and lobbying (i.e. bribing of public officials) would occur nevertheless: the officials would still want money and power. As far as the democratic deterrence to said corruption? There, I agree with you that it's completely negligible, and that the average voter is not sophisticated enough to deter it.

IMO it has to do with how lobbying actually works. You can't just line a politician's pocket to get certain policies implemented, that money has to be legitimated. It's legitimated largely through campaign financing. The threat is that if you don't do what we want, that money will go to the election of your competitor. With no elections, there are no campaigns, and no campaign financing. Now, big capital interests will attempt to invent ways to get their money back into the decision making of the country, but that's a different discussion.

 

[Prokofievian]

Or just have legitimate elections where all adult legal citizens of said country vote and whoever wins, wins.

This is more relevant for the election of an executive, as opposed to a legislative body.

 

[Higus]

Plato was famously against Democracy. He warned that the common folk were foolish and short-sighted, and eventually elect Tyrants.

 

[surrealworlds]

IMO it has to do with how lobbying actually works. You can't just line a politician's pocket to get certain policies implemented, that money has to be legitimated. It's legitimated largely through campaign financing. The threat is that if you don't do what we want, that money will go to the election of your competitor. With no elections, there are no campaigns, and no campaign financing. Now, big capital interests will attempt to invent ways to get their money back into the decision making of the country, but that's a different discussion.

Why not just outlaw public campaign financing? Or corporate donations?

 

[SammyPops]

So TS wants to base choosing a nation's leader on a system used by the place that started ass fucking?

 

[Prokofievian]

Why not just outlaw public campaign financing? Or corporate donations?

You could do so, and I think I would support such measures, but that doesn't solve the whole problem, though. To give one concrete example, defence contractors have strategically placed their plants all over the United States for one purpose: they can not only buy votes for whichever candidate they like, but they can hold politicians at ransom for their votes in congress once they're in. ''Do as we say or we'll close down this enormous plant in your district and open it up somewhere else.'' If you're not up for re-election, this threat is a lot more empty.

 

[Prokofievian]

So TS wants to base choosing a nation's leader on a system used by the place that started ass fucking?

I can amend the original post to add this to the list of positives if you feel that strongly about it.

 

[SammyPops]

I can amend the original post to add this to the list of positives if you feel that strongly about it.

Only if you include the clip from teh Wire, where I got the line.