Why does the President demonstrably lie so much, and why do we tolerate it?

[Jack V Savage]

I think we've normalized lying in politics for a long enough time now to the extent that it is expected, that the right/wrong binary no longer functions along the lines of lie/truth, but rather on an axis of "tells the right lies the right way" vs "tells the wrong lies the wrong way." Or, tells lies politely and with an expected level of decorum and elegance.

In some cases, I actually think the people who are running to their fainting couches in outrage over Trump's bold faced lying who are the more eyebrow raising than their counterparts, with their plethoras of "Oh, it's different this time" rationalizations. There has been a culture of blatant lying in the American political climate for decades - but suddenly it has gone too far? I suppose it will all work out when we have another leader in a few years telling the right lies in the right way, all classy like, making us feel good about it, then we can turn off the outrage over the lying.

Or we can have another honest administration like the last one. This kind of cynicism just encourages lying and defenses of lying.

 

[nostradumbass]

Hasn’t it already harmed American farmers, automobile & motorcycle manufacturers, and bourbon manufacturers?

That and it seems pretty idiotic to impose tariffs on our closest friends in Europe, along with Canada and Mexico.

But I appreciate your open mindedness. I expect this move will bite Trump in the ass. Those adversely affected make up his base.

I'm not sure if it has already affected them or if that's a projection. One thing Trump doesn't get because of the business he's been in is that most people can't afford to play hardball to get an eventual benefit. I suspect he's bluffing on any permanent tariffs to get other countries to lower theirs, which would benefit those industries in the end if it works, but I am concerned it might take longer than expected.

 

[Ranzou**]

Hes not. Your just.....

 

[Not A Theist]

Or we can have another honest administration like the last one. This kind of cynicism just encourages lying and defenses of lying.

I think we should set a significantly higher standard than the last administration. Though, the "we" is largely symbolic, as I'm not American.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I think we should set a significantly higher standard than the last administration. Though, the "we" is largely symbolic, as I'm not American.

Not sure how it can be much higher, but OK. The higher the better. I'm all for looking for less reasons to excuse bad behavior.

 

[nostradumbass]

Oh, I was unaware that he added all that nuance.

I specifically said he didn't. He's very imprecise with his language, but people do check IDs at the grocery store all the time, and I can't think of anything more petty to get upset over. Target or Publix check my ID every week when I buy nicotine lozenges, and you say "tolerate it" like we're supposed to storm the white house because you can buy cheese doodles with cash and not get carded.

 

[Strychnine]

"We" tolerate it because it's all about "Owing the Libs" now. It's a perverted from of schadenfreude because they are "Winning" at the cost of flushing the country down the swamp.

 

[nostradumbass]

Or we can have another honest administration like the last one. This kind of cynicism just encourages lying and defenses of lying.

Yeah, another honest administration like the guy who won politifact's prestigious "lie of the year".

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Hes not. Your just.....

View attachment 415909
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*yoor

 

[Fawlty]

There's an amazing pathology going on itt. Even Trump defenders don't actually want to be seen as liars. That's good on its own, but when it shows up according to the prime directive (support Trump always), you get these extremely thin and transparent rationalizations and fallacies. It's not really distinguishable from lying/dishonesty, but it's technically not lying, in their minds. It's the sort of thinking that you correct in 6 year olds the minute you see it, if you care about your children.

 

[Not A Theist]

Not sure how it can be much higher, but OK. The higher the better. I'm all for looking for less reasons to excuse bad behavior.

I can understand that (first part before your edit) given the history presented with, but it's only against a backdrop of an astoundingly dishonest political landscape that the Obama administration could be presented as truthful. Acceptance of such a relativistic standard only perpetuates this "less of two evils" mindset that has people adopting crook after political opportunist after crook.

Now, I will be totally clear - the Obama administration has likely been the most honest administration in recent memory, and the orange goon is probably the worst in recent memory. The presentation of even a relatively good administration as being a bastion of truth simply implies a maxim amounting to what I said in my first post:

"the right/wrong binary no longer functions along the lines of lie/truth, but rather on an axis of "tells the right lies the right way" vs "tells the wrong lies the wrong way." Or, tells lies politely and with an expected level of decorum and elegance."

The Obama administration being presented as a bastion of truth to be aspired to do is appalling, and a worse administration following doesn't change this.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

I specifically said he didn't. He's very imprecise with his language, but people do check IDs at the grocery store all the time, and I can't think of anything more petty to get upset over. Target or Publix check my ID every week when I buy nicotine lozenges, and you say "tolerate it" like we're supposed to storm the white house because you can buy cheese doodles with cash and not get carded.

I see. So this is assumed context, which he didn't actually say, am I getting that right?

Because that seems like a lie about a lie. Reducing an argument to the point of absurdity so that it requires others to explain what you actually meant...

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

I can understand that (first part before your edit) given the history presented with, but it's only against a backdrop of an astoundingly dishonest political landscape that the Obama administration could be presented as truthful. Acceptance of such a relativistic standard only perpetuates this "less of two evils" mindset that has people adopting crook after political opportunist after crook.

Now, I will be totally clear - the Obama administration has likely been the most honest administration in recent memory, and the orange goon is probably the worst in recent memory. The presentation of even a relatively good administration as being a bastion of truth simply implies a maxim amounting to what I said in my first post:

"the right/wrong binary no longer functions along the lines of lie/truth, but rather on an axis of "tells the right lies the right way" vs "tells the wrong lies the wrong way." Or, tells lies politely and with an expected level of decorum and elegance."

The Obama administration being presented as a bastion of truth to be aspired to do is appalling, and a worse administration following doesn't change this.

Which is the reason other President's statements aren't relevant.
They're a smokescreen.

 

[Fawlty]

Now, I will be totally clear - the Obama administration has likely been the most honest administration in recent memory, and the orange goon is probably the worst in recent memory

Here is an example of something rotten, and it's from somebody who isn't even a hardcore Trumper, as far as I know. You damn well know that Trump is not "probably" the worst in "recent memory." So why soft serve it?

 

[Jack V Savage]

I can understand that (first part before your edit) given the history presented with, but it's only against a backdrop of an astoundingly dishonest political landscape that the Obama administration could be presented as truthful.

Incorrect.

Now, I will be totally clear - the Obama administration has likely been the most honest administration in recent memory, and the orange goon is probably the worst in recent memory. The presentation of even a relatively good administration as being a bastion of truth simply implies a maxim amounting to what I said in my first post

On the contrary, the kind of cynicism that you're pushing--where even an exceptionally honest administration is seen as dishonest--is what opens the door to much worse. Look no further than this thread for defenses of Trump's dishonesty along the lines of "cosi fan tutti" (I masculinized it to change the implication).

 

[bobgeese]

With the recent claim that buying groceries requires ID, to making Mexico pay for a wall, to political promises, why do we tolerate such blatant lying from this, and only this POTUS?
And why on Earth does he do it?
There seem only two best answers:
1. He's really that ill-informed
Or
2. He's doing it intentionally to redefine the truth to suit whatever the moment requires in order to foster confusion.

"The President has a great deal of difficulty with the truth. On many issues." ~Bob Corker

Discuss...

First, your post is sub potato intelligence. All politicians lie, maybe you just started paying attention, get used to it.

Second, the reason he lies, is to shape the narrative. That’s politics 101.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Did you guys know "millions" of people voted illegally?

 

[Not A Theist]

Here is an example of something rotten, and it's from somebody who isn't even a hardcore Trumper, as far as I know. You damn well know that Trump is not "probably" the worst in "recent memory." So why soft serve it?

Totally fair point. Trump is an appalling human being, and it is wrong of me to "soft serve" it. It's a habit I have developed to not speak too strongly about things of which I am not certain.

To put it in context, I can't speak of Trump's relationship to, say, the of Nixon's truthfulness accurately. I can say that Trump is lying at a greater rate, but I'm not sure he is dropping quite the whoppers that Nixon did - though that, again, may be a product of my ignorance. What's more, I see the lies that got the U.S. into the Iraq war as significantly worse than any single lie that Trump has promulgated yet - so I have trouble judging a relatively truthful administration which had one horrible, huge, and effectively destructive lie versus one where the president lies over stupid stuff like a call he had with the Boyscouts, but he hasn't started a war with it - yet.

I hope this gives context beyond "something rotten." I simply don't want to overspeak my position, and I think there is some ambiguity between quantity and magnitude.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Anybody ever heard of John Miller?

Or the both-options pussy-grabbing tape admission and then retraction that "it doesn't sound like me"?
Despite his public acknowledgment of the recording’s authenticity in the final days of the presidential campaign — and his hasty videotaped apology under pressure from his advisers — Mr. Trump as president-elect began raising the prospect with allies that it may not have been him on the tape after all.

He's so loose with the truth.

 

[Not A Theist]

Incorrect.

Could you explain? Is your assertion that the Obama administration was entirely truthful? The public campaign financing promise with McCain, the "You can keep your doctor," an absence of earmarks on stimulus packages, claims about the Fast and the Furious program being started under the Bush administration, and many other matters of public record?

I'd be willing to concede that it is likely the most truthful administration in recent memory, but I'll need a bit more context to concede this point to you.

On the contrary, the kind of cynicism that you're pushing--where even an exceptionally honest administration is seen as dishonest--is what opens the door to much worse. Look no further than this thread for defenses of Trump's dishonesty along the lines of "cosi fan tutti" (I masculinized it to change the implication).

I'm not sure I agree on this. Attempting to set a higher standard leads to a justification of bad behavior? Of course, this is contingent on the first part of this exchange.

As for the last bit, nice touch. You have an undeniable sense of style about you.