Why does it take so long to get good at BJJ yet...

[JoshGrrrr]

I've seen the exact opposite. We've had guys who wrestled on a college level come to our school and get tapped over and over and over by blue belts (around 2 years training) and even white belts. It takes years to get good at BJJ because it's wrestling plus A LOT more.

I think if you are talking sub only, the a BJJ guy and a wrestler who've been training the same amount of time would be no contest. BJJ guy would almost always win.

If you are talking tournament rules, the wrestler could definitely win with takedowns alone.

 

[padirk165]

in wrestling 95% of the technique you learn is on how to conrol you opponent, because thats all you gotta do to win a wrestling match.

To win a BJJ match the main emphasis is to submit your opponent. This means that a large portion of BJJ training is geared towards submission techniques, which inturn reduces the amount of time a typical BJJ player will train 'wrestling' (i.e controlling your opponent) technique.

But heres the catch, in a BJJ match it is quite rare to get a submission without first properly controlling your opponent. So if a wrestler and BJJ'er compete in a BJJ match it is obvious the wrestler will have much better takedowns and positional control, it also must be added that from here it is not that uncommon for the wrestler to then struggle to submit the BJJ'er due to the lack of training in the submission side of the BJJ game.

The only reason the wrestler is 'just as good with less training' than the BJJ'er is because its possible to win a BJJ match on points by controlling your opponent until time runs out.

Agree with a lot of this. Was a HS state champ and all american and a collegiate NCAA D1 qualifier and then coached D1 college and just started BJJ a little over a year ago.

Another big difference IMO is the availability and frequency of competition. For a HS wrestler you will have competition every week sometimes multiple times. In BJJ it seems to be pretty rare and when you are competing some of the best guys arent there doing it. I also think the belt system has huge merits but it can also have adverse effects in comps. As a high school freshman/ sophomore you can learn a lot competing and taking your beating against better older wrestlers. This is not something that happens outside of training in BJJ unless you compete above your belt level which isnt advisable due to the lack of competitions available, and some wont let you do it anyway. I am a blue now but really wish I could compete against better guys especially in local comps, I'd love to take some beatings from brown and black belts in comps as I think it would really help my learning curve. It just isnt the same in practice/training. Just another thought on some of the difference between the two disciplines.

 

[CyberFreq]

The reason that wrestlers can come into BJJ with an 'already there' game is because wrestling is simply the top game in BJJ combined with the standing game for BJJ. They work takedowns, they work top control, they know positions.

Trust me, it still takes work. Wrestling just pushes you to learn it faster.

 

[Tony Manifold]

The average bjj player trains for fun and competes sometimes. The average wrestler trains for competition. In fact 99% of wrestlers train for competition. It is that simple.

 

[BIGthingsSON]

A guy who's done BJJ for 5+ years will most likely run through any pure wrestler easily.

 

[Irenaeus]

A guy who's done BJJ for 5+ years will most likely run through any pure wrestler easily.

Not in a pure wrestling match, they wont.

 

[Irenaeus]

Well I would want to get my money's worth, I'm probably thinking about going in 3-4 times a week. Would that burn me out? I'm pretty athletic, I lift weights, my cardio is good, etc.

3-4 times a week has worked for me for over a year now, and I'm not pretty athletic. You can probably train more often when you feel like it, as long as you don't force it.

 

[platfox]

people who did wrestling in highschool for a couple of years are just as good as a person who's done BJJ for 5+ years?

Well first of all, I disagree. Even as a white belt I was tapping Ca state ranked wrestlers. We get wrestlers who come in during their off season to stay active and not a single one is better than any of our blues.

 

[Splatterbeast]

Well first of all, I disagree. Even as a white belt I was tapping Ca state ranked wrestlers. We get wrestlers who come in during their off season to stay active and not a single one is better than any of our blues.

there are two wrestlers at the bjj school i'm at currently who are white belts. they are doing extremely well, especially when it comes to rolling. one of them already ranked up and he's just been there for under a month. guess it just depends on the person.

 

[platfox]

there are two wrestlers at the bjj school i'm at currently who are white belts. they are doing extremely well, especially when it comes to rolling. one of them already ranked up and he's just been there for under a month. guess it just depends on the person.

I agree wrestlers have a head start compared to guys who didn't wrestle in high school but the OP mentioned bjj guys with 5 + years experience. That would put most people at purple or a high blue. High school wrestlers (phenoms excluded) usually get schooled by them.

 

[Uezama**]

So theoretically if I started showing up to BJJ classes 5 times a week and kept practicing I'd get really good within the next couple of years?

I thought I read in another BJJ post on here someone recommended n00bs not do it that frequently cause they might get 'burnt out' etc.?

burn out? fuck that. push yourself.

 

[knoxpk]

Well first of all, I disagree. Even as a white belt I was tapping Ca state ranked wrestlers. We get wrestlers who come in during their off season to stay active and not a single one is better than any of our blues.

Wow they must be dumb as a box of rocks. No offense but if they are high quality wrestlers with presumably a high quality control game once they learn about posture, a guard pass or 2 and the concept of both arms in or both arms out they should give most guys fits unless, as I said, they just don't get it.

I am nowhere near that level and tapped a blue my 1st day. My brother tapped a blue during a team game of king of the mountain. Basically everyone was paired up in teams if you tapped out the guy you were facing, you could go help a partner and you moved on until the entire other team had to tap. He was the 1st guy to submit his opponent and he was not even a full time student, He attended perhaps 6 classes in a year.

What I am getting at is with some fundamental defenses to submissions (which come pretty fast) they should be right back at the "giving guys fits" stage, unless they suck or are dumb of course. I know I said it 3 times, but it was worth repeating.

 

[InfiniteWit]

Troll. It's the environment.

 

[platfox]

Wow they must be dumb as a box of rocks. No offense but if they are high quality wrestlers with presumably a high quality control game once they learn about posture, a guard pass or 2 and the concept of both arms in or both arms out they should give most guys fits unless, as I said, they just don't get it.

You learned and were able to implement these on your first day against a blue belt? You must've had some previous sub grappling experience right?

I am nowhere near that level and tapped a blue my 1st day. My brother tapped a blue during a team game of king of the mountain. Basically everyone was paired up in teams if you tapped out the guy you were facing, you could go help a partner and you moved on until the entire other team had to tap. He was the 1st guy to submit his opponent and he was not even a full time student, He attended perhaps 6 classes in a year.

If you were just a high school wrestler, where did you learn the submission that you caught the blue belt with on your first day? The wrestlers that come in are awesome at a few things, whipping down to a front headlock and turning guys over from the front headlock, and basing in someones guard. Other than that, they didn't know how to defend spider guard, deep half guard, closed guard, butterfly guard, having someone on their back, defending darces and other chokes, or even preventing guard passes. I mean how could they, they've never dealt with that before.

What I am getting at is with some fundamental defenses to submissions (which come pretty fast) they should be right back at the "giving guys fits" stage, unless they suck or are dumb of course. I know I said it 3 times, but it was worth repeating.

The wrestlers that stuck to it for more than a month did awesome, but as far as their first week, they got tooled by blue belts and forget about the guys with 5+ yrs of bjj (as OP mentions). In fact one of the wrestlers got his blue in less than 6 months but his first few weeks, he wasn't tapping anyone.

 

[knoxpk]

You learned and were able to implement these on your first day against a blue belt? You must've had some previous sub grappling experience right?



If you were just a high school wrestler, where did you learn the submission that you caught the blue belt with on your first day? The wrestlers that come in are awesome at a few things, whipping down to a front headlock and turning guys over from the front headlock, and basing in someones guard. Other than that, they didn't know how to defend spider guard, deep half guard, having someone on their back, defending darces, or even preventing guard passes. I mean how could they, they've never dealt with that before.



The wrestlers that stuck to it for more than a month did awesome, but as far as their first week, they got tooled by blue belts and forget about the guys with 5+ yrs of bjj (as OP mentions). In fact one of the wrestlers got his blue in less than 6 months but his first few weeks, he wasn't tapping anyone.

Well you are on to something.

1st there was NO BJJ school around in the Tampa area when I was training except for the one I went to later. So the "prior sub grappling" came from books and dvd's and working with my brother on the racquetball court at the gym. We had some guys pop in and out from Judo and JJJ backgrounds that rolled with us from time to time.

I would say that even though I did not "know" BJJ I knew what left me exposed AGAINST BJJ. The submission I used we called the crucifix but it is different than a BJJ crucifix. My bro used a RNC off a snap down. I guess what you could say is we were students of the game and with some actual grappling experience we could get the feel of what a move was supposed to do even without an "expert" showing us.

I must clarify this was no gi and do realize you may be talking about gi which is far different. I generally make no distinction when talking about BJJ and the gi versus no gi thing. Even though we rarely used a gi if someone asked what I was doing, I told them "BJJ".

So when I read posts I am reflecting back to my own concepts of what BJJ is.

 

[platfox]

Ok that makes more sense. You guys had at least some knowledge of sub defense and even knew a few submissions.

I'm not discrediting the wrestlers as just regular newbs, they were definitely better than the one or two month whitebelts but there was no way they were going tosweep a blue belt, pass a blue belt's guard and then proceed to submit him. Well I never witnessed it anyways. You and your brother must be the few exceptions.

 

[Wrestleben]

Most people who wrestle for a couple years suck. Good wrestlers usually start when they are kids, and put 10-15 years on the mat before they finish. If you take someone who has 15 years of mat time vs someone who has 2 years....then yes the wrestler will probably "win". If you take someone who wrestled in 10th and 11th grade against a 2 year blue belt, the blue belt will probably thrash him.

 

[knoxpk]

Ok that makes more sense. You guys had at least some knowledge of sub defense and even knew a few submissions.

I'm not discrediting the wrestlers as just regular newbs, they were definitely better than the one or two month whitebelts but there was no way they were going tosweep a blue belt, pass a blue belt's guard and then proceed to submit him. Well I never witnessed it anyways. You and your brother must be the few exceptions.

I agree on most points, especially in the gi. In no gi I found it more natural and it was easier for me to pick up a pass on even some of the better guys. Also I could do alot of moves right into control positions and even subs right from neutral or the knees. My mindset during sparring was not to get caught in guard in the 1st place and off my back, forget it. I could control the newbs but anyone blue and up would indeed thrash me even without the gi.

Most people who wrestle for a couple years suck. Good wrestlers usually start when they are kids, and put 10-15 years on the mat before they finish. If you take someone who has 15 years of mat time vs someone who has 2 years....then yes the wrestler will probably "win". If you take someone who wrestled in 10th and 11th grade against a 2 year blue belt, the blue belt will probably thrash him.

I dunno it depends on the athlete. Here in Florida there was not much of a club scene to allow kids to practice from the age or 6 or 7. It is getting better now but most kids at that time were indeed just 3 or 4 year wrestlers and they were pretty respectable even then.

The year round wrestlers were far better than the "wrestling season" wrestlers so you need some clarification there. For instance a "wrestling season" wrestler only does wrestling about 4 months out of a year. So 2 years of that is REALLY only 8 months of training. I would imagine that a 2 year blue belt that trains year round should be able to beat 8 months of experience spread over 2 years in a BJJ match.

Hell even if they had the exact same time on the mat he should be able to beat him in a BJJ match.

A year round wrestler probably gets a good 8 months of wrestling in per year if they go to Freestyle/Greco and Summer events but that takes a motivated person. FS and Greco season is not a HS sponsored sport and it is purely voluntary and not everyone wants to dive right back into practice and tourneys after getting through with the HS season.

For the record I am not saying that wrestling > BJJ or that wrestlers with 2 years can beat bjj guys with 2 years in BJJ. OP was asking why it seems wrestlers progress faster and I was trying to explain the concept of mat time and competition. Since then I have responded to other posts regarding personal experiences to debunk some of the things said here.

Also keep in mind that I probably trained in a gi perhaps 10 times in my life when it comes to BJJ. So I am reflecting on no gi.

 

[platfox]

For the record I am not saying that wrestling > BJJ or that wrestlers with 2 years can beat bjj guys with 2 years in BJJ. OP was asking why it seems wrestlers progress faster and I was trying to explain the concept of mat time and competition.
.

Theres no doubt, ex wrestlers progress faster than the average joe, but since you brought up the OP. He was comparing high school wrestlers to bjj guys with 5 + years experience, not 2 yr blue belts.

 

[knoxpk]

Theres no doubt, ex wrestlers progress faster than the average joe, but since you brought up the OP. He was comparing high school wrestlers to bjj guys with 5 + years experience, not 2 yr blue belts.

Yeah, he's delusion if that is the case.

5+ years of mat work and submissions trumps any HS wrestling experience. Thats just foolish. That wrestler would have to get a good 6 months to a year of sub training just to not get sub'd every 2 minutes. It's the part of the game where you have little to no exposure in wrestling and with the gi, I would say it is even worse.