why do the trainers do this?

[pierce8468]

I have seen thread after thread on here about people sparring after a month of training. Am I the only one on here to see this as a problem? Each time I see one of these threads I also see numerous responces on what that person needs to do to improve. The thing I have never seen is anyone say stop sparring and learn the propper form.

Lets be realistic with one another here. Your form is the most important aspect of your training. So why in the world would any trainer take a person who has not even begun to develop thier form, and have them sparring? I just don't get it at all! At my gym sparring is an invite only class, and you are not getting invited unless they feel you are ready. They do it this way for a few reasons. Such as they actualy produce real fighters, and don't need some rookie wasting the fighters sparring time, but the other reason is simple. A new guy/girl just is not ready for sparring!


Seeing this makes me feel two things. The first is sad for the people who are just thrwon right into to sparring. Because they are wasting valuable training time, The otheer is makes me appreciate my trainers even more!

For anyone who may read this and be looking for a descent gym to train in. Think about this for a second. Do you want to join a gym to spar, or do you want to learn? If you want to learn, I would suggest when looking at gyms. Take into consideration how early will your trainer have you sparring. If he tells you after two weeks, or hell even a definate time without even seeing your capabilties. You may want to think twice about that gym!

 

[earthman32]

Yeah, good point. Its not really helping the fighters get better. They need people who are relatively close to or beyond the level of experience of their opponent.

I think it is a selling point more than anything. You've got a lot of guys who want to see some action and are not enthused about paying their gym membership, buying the equipment, and then shadow boxing a jab or a slip-bob & weave for hours infront of a mirror.

I've seen both sides of this. At my first official gym, I was sparring within two or three weeks after I had proven that I had the conditioning to withstand it. But I had practiced boxing techniques for over a year on my own from videos and helpful forums such as this one!

I worked to an amateur career and fought boxing, kickboxing and mma, but then I moved and joined a new gym. That gym had strict guidelines for sparring, but I was fine with going in and proving that I was experienced enough to be allowed to spar (as I was still trying to continue my amateur fight career). But there were so many restrictions that after 8 mos at the gym I was still not allowed to spar. In fact, I had not even strapped on a glove and hit a bag after 8 mos....and I've been training since 2003! I dropped that gym like a bad habit, I'm fighting independently because I'm still having to pay the gym dues until the contract is expired and can't afford to find another gym.

My advice, shop around....

 

[jwalk2515]

As long as a new person is not sparring against someone with great form that is simply going to wear them out or discourage them, why not?

Sparring can show some of the why's to the form. Such as when that dude throws a jab and I get stupid and repeatedly step straight back he is going to nail me with the cross for keeping my head still and moving in straight lines.

Some people will actually understand everything as explained, some need to be smacked in the head for it to make sense.

Why do you think you know better than trainers?

 

[earthman32]

No one is saying they know more than anyone else. But that's how people learn bad habits. Especially two newbies at the gym. That can be worse because they don't understand the mentality of sparring, that it's not about competition and someone get hurt or frustrated. Then it becomes a toughman contest. Don't be so confrontational jwalk, we're just talkin' here.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

I would never train anywhere that didn't allow some kind of sparring after a month or two of training.

The problem is with trainers that don't know how to run sparring sessions for begginers. You have to break things down into digestible chunks. Assigned offense and defense. Jab only sparring and other drills.

For MT or KB, have seperate hands only, feet only and intgrated sparring. It should start out at like 10% speed and effort, then 25%, 50% etc. It HAS to be enforced by the coach and experienced assistants who demonstrates what this looks like and does not allow brawling.

You cannot learn to fight without sparring. You will never learn real tactics, footwork, and timing without sparring. Everthing else is a dance routine. Dance routines are good for learning basic muscle movements but without aliveness and a thinking, resisting opponent, your training is crap.

Especially in MMA, there are guys with horrible form and good functional effectiveness. There are also guys that look like Bruce Lee doing shadow boxing in front of the mirror and fall apart once they take one good stiff jab in the face.

 

[Sinister]

I have seen thread after thread on here about people sparring after a month of training. Am I the only one on here to see this as a problem? Each time I see one of these threads I also see numerous responces on what that person needs to do to improve. The thing I have never seen is anyone say stop sparring and learn the propper form.

Lets be realistic with one another here. Your form is the most important aspect of your training. So why in the world would any trainer take a person who has not even begun to develop thier form, and have them sparring? I just don't get it at all! At my gym sparring is an invite only class, and you are not getting invited unless they feel you are ready. They do it this way for a few reasons. Such as they actualy produce real fighters, and don't need some rookie wasting the fighters sparring time, but the other reason is simple. A new guy/girl just is not ready for sparring!


Seeing this makes me feel two things. The first is sad for the people who are just thrwon right into to sparring. Because they are wasting valuable training time, The otheer is makes me appreciate my trainers even more!

For anyone who may read this and be looking for a descent gym to train in. Think about this for a second. Do you want to join a gym to spar, or do you want to learn? If you want to learn, I would suggest when looking at gyms. Take into consideration how early will your trainer have you sparring. If he tells you after two weeks, or hell even a definate time without even seeing your capabilties. You may want to think twice about that gym!

Yeah, a lot of Gyms operate on the opposite sentiment of what you're expressing, and still churn out "real Fighters" as you put it.

Early sparring is typically based on a few main principles. One is to see how a person's instincts are. Some people no matter how much they're coddled and encouraged are just not cut out to be Fighters, and trainers feel it's more of a waste of time to develop the form of such people, who are only going to betray that form and not desire to progress. An early foray into controlled sparring can identify such individuals who can save themselves a lot of heartache and be told "you're not going to make it in this."

Another reason is to see where the person is with resilience and cardiovascular endurance. Again, controlled sparring can identify everything a trainer needs to work on with a tentative Fighter, if they need to work the entire package, or mainly focus on technique. And there are a number of athletically gifted people who can fit into the category of only really needing to learn technique while maintaining basic aspects of conditioning.

In many Gyms, early sparring is used as a preliminary tool for weeding out those who are not serious. And if said Gym is not concerned with the sentiments you mentioned above, then if a person were to choose not to train there because they'd be subjected to early sparring, then the tool has worked.

True indeed it's not for everyone, but there are many vastly successful Gyms and trainers who utilize this practice.

 

[pierce8468]

As long as a new person is not sparring against someone with great form that is simply going to wear them out or discourage them, why not?

Sparring can show some of the why's to the form. Such as when that dude throws a jab and I get stupid and repeatedly step straight back he is going to nail me with the cross for keeping my head still and moving in straight lines.


I agree that sparring does show the why to he form, but you must first learn the form. I just feel that if your still throwing a awful jab, cross, hook combo you need more trining before sparring1

Some people will actually understand everything as explained, some need to be smacked in the head for it to make sense. This I will agree with

Why do you think you know better than trainers?

I don't feel that I know more then the trainers. I just feel that my trainers have the right idea.

 

[pierce8468]

I would never train anywhere that didn't allow some kind of sparring after a month or two of training.

The problem is with trainers that don't know how to run sparring sessions for begginers. You have to break things down into digestible chunks. Assigned offense and defense. Jab only sparring and other drills.




For MT or KB, have seperate hands only, feet only and intgrated sparring. It should start out at like 10% speed and effort, then 25%, 50% etc. It HAS to be enforced by the coach and experienced assistants who demonstrates what this looks like and does not allow brawling.

I dont see these as sparring sessions as much as I do as drills. These I agree with! You can hit a bag all day long and still be clueless when a person is throwing a punch or kick back at you.



You cannot learn to fight without sparring. You will never learn real tactics, footwork, and timing without sparring. Everthing else is a dance routine. Dance routines are good for learning basic muscle movements but without aliveness and a thinking, resisting opponent, your training is crap.

I agree you need to spar in order to actualy progress, but I just think all out sparring to early is just counter productive

 

[pierce8468]

Yeah, a lot of Gyms operate on the opposite sentiment of what you're expressing, and still churn out "real Fighters" as you put it.

Please don't take my real fighters comment the wrong way. I just meant that our gym takes pride in creating a fighter, and not just one of those lets just get thier money gyms. For example we just had a guy take a accept a fight on an elitexc pre-card, who hasn't trained in 4 months and the fight was 3 weeks away. Haigh is upset about because it is his gyms name on the line!



Early sparring is typically based on a few main principles. One is to see how a person's instincts are. Some people no matter how much they're coddled and encouraged are just not cut out to be Fighters, and trainers feel it's more of a waste of time to develop the form of such people, who are only going to betray that form and not desire to progress. An early foray into controlled sparring can identify such individuals who can save themselves a lot of heartache and be told "you're not going to make it in this."

I guess I can see it bieng a good idea for tha reason, but I still think it will take longer to be a descent fighter.

Another reason is to see where the person is with resilience and cardiovascular endurance. Again, controlled sparring can identify everything a trainer needs to work on with a tentative Fighter, if they need to work the entire package, or mainly focus on technique. And there are a number of athletically gifted people who can fit into the category of only really needing to learn technique while maintaining basic aspects of conditioning.


Ok I see your point, but you can't you identify where they belong from hitting a bag? For instance I walk into a gym and say I want to train. Trainer says ok go over to that bag and let me see what you have. If I am flat out horrible then you can see that I need to start out on the ground floor. If I have a bit of skill then lets see how I am at the next level, and go from there.

In many Gyms, early sparring is used as a preliminary tool for weeding out those who are not serious. And if said Gym is not concerned with the sentiments you mentioned above, then if a person were to choose not to train there because they'd be subjected to early sparring, then the tool has worked.

True indeed it's not for everyone, but there are many vastly successful Gyms and trainers who utilize this practice.

I see your point, to a point! Perhaps I am getting a bad taste in my mouth from it, because of most of the vids I see on here. maybe I am only getting to see the vids from the schools who encourage sparring as a way to keep you coming back. That I don't know! For example I watched a vid of a horrible boxing display, of a kid who says he has trained for about a yr, and has 4 fights so far. Not only did it hurt to watch, because he was just horrible after a yr, but I have to wonder what trainer would encourage 4 fights in the first yr.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

In many Gyms, early sparring is used as a preliminary tool for weeding out those who are not serious. And if said Gym is not concerned with the sentiments you mentioned above, then if a person were to choose not to train there because they'd be subjected to early sparring, then the tool has worked.

True indeed it's not for everyone, but there are many vastly successful Gyms and trainers who utilize this practice.

Its a difference in philosphy between TMA type dojos and competitive combat sports programs.

If you show up to your high school wrestling program or local boxing gym and you are fat, uncoordinated and half blind, you are quickly going to get some kind of "tryout" that will likely result in coach recommending you go for band or the chess club.

If this same guy shows up to McDojo, pays his dues regularly and learns his dance routines, he IS going to progress and will be allowed to hang around indefinitely.

There's a place for both approaches. I think Judo has about the best system. Most Judo dojo have competitive players that make rank quickly based on competitive success. Then there are "kata guys" that make rank more slowly and don't typically get the respect that fighters do, but are a valued part of the community none the less. EVERYBODY at least spars (randori).

Not everyone is cut out to be a fighter but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy or benefit from some kind of instruction.

It does drive me crazy when you have non-fighting, light or non-sparring dojos that are teaching shit that just plain wouldn't work and talking like you could use it "in the street". The world is full of so called experts in the martial arts that have never been in one fucking fistfight.

 

[pierce8468]

I worked to an amateur career and fought boxing, kickboxing and mma, but then I moved and joined a new gym. That gym had strict guidelines for sparring, but I was fine with going in and proving that I was experienced enough to be allowed to spar (as I was still trying to continue my amateur fight career). But there were so many restrictions that after 8 mos at the gym I was still not allowed to spar. In fact, I had not even strapped on a glove and hit a bag after 8 mos....and I've been training since 2003! I dropped that gym like a bad habit, I'm fighting independently because I'm still having to pay the gym dues until the contract is expired and can't afford to find another gym.


Now that sounds a bit much to me! 8 months, and you where trained already? What in the world could they have had you doing for 8 months, if you never even put on a pair of gloves?





My advice, shop around....[/QUOTE]

 

[jlagman]

I see your point, to a point! Perhaps I am getting a bad taste in my mouth from it, because of most of the vids I see on here. maybe I am only getting to see the vids from the schools who encourage sparring as a way to keep you coming back. That I don't know! For example I watched a vid of a horrible boxing display, of a kid who says he has trained for about a yr, and has 4 fights so far. Not only did it hurt to watch, because he was just horrible after a yr, but I have to wonder what trainer would encourage 4 fights in the first yr.

The problem is that you're basing your judgements on Sherdog's standup forum, a place riddled with TMA vs. Muay Thai/boxing/kickboxing "arguments", "sparring" videos, southpaw and ambidextrous "discussions", and do-it-yourself training "methods".

 

[pierce8468]

Please read inside the quotes to see my full replys

 

[Underdog1030]

Yeah you need to make a foundation for your striking. Build foot work and combos. Thats basically why u c bad strikers because they started sparring without proper technique.

 

[Sinister]

Er, that's not why you see bad strikers.

 

[Ryukyu Damashi]

I let my students play spar Thai style after about a month.

 

[Brent Schermerhorn]

KK you seem to be one knowledgeable SOB LOL....
I think the part of seeing the guy in action lets the trainers know his heart, how well he puts what they have already been taught to use, what they need to work more on and it just is plain necessary to become competitive.
As long as the guy is not getting destroyed and people are knowing they are in there with a beginner, no harm, no foul.

 

[Prodigal Son]

Living in a small-town with no boxing school and sparring against ex-pro boxers occasionally - I think I begin to understand the importance of a good foundation. I ask a lot of questions but they don't seem to care to answering them or fully giving out the details, but they seem enthused to be giving out the beatings.

I don't plan on going pro or anything, just sparring and maybe competing, I really want to learn the philly shell style too. At this point I have block with my nose style, but there is a point where the toughness barrier crosses over into stupidity.

 

[fightingrabbit]

KK you seem to be one knowledgeable SOB LOL....
I think the part of seeing the guy in action lets the trainers know his heart, how well he puts what they have already been taught to use, what they need to work more on and it just is plain necessary to become competitive.
As long as the guy is not getting destroyed and people are knowing they are in there with a beginner, no harm, no foul.

well said. People seem to get the idea that the noob is getting raped in there. When in reality the more experienced guy should already know to go light. Hit the guy yeah, but just know you're not in there to rumble and everything should play out fine.

The new fish will start getting acclimatized to that pressure that you feel by being boxed in the squared circle..In an enclosed space where you really have nowhere to run, besides into a corner. Then in time, after you put him in enough, the new fish learns hey i dont have to back up, or keep running side to side. I can advance forward, and this space can be mine. The fish then starts getting accustomed to his newfound place in the ring, until it becomes his second home, and eventually he starts being the one making other fishes pay real estate for steppin into his abode...

And thats the circle of life my friends.

what im trying to say is. People are fish.

 

[Marvin Covar]

well said. People seem to get the idea that the noob is getting raped in there. When in reality the more experienced guy should already know to go light. Hit the guy yeah, but just know you're not in there to rumble and everything should play out fine.

The new fish will start getting acclimatized to that pressure that you feel by being boxed in the squared circle..In an enclosed space where you really have nowhere to run, besides into a corner. Then in time, after you put him in enough, the new fish learns hey i dont have to back up, or keep running side to side. I can advance forward, and this space can be mine. The new fish then starts getting accustomed to his newfound place in the ring, until it becomes his second home, and eventually he starts being the one making other fishes pay real estate for steppin in his abode...

And thats the circle of life my friends.

That was beautiful... *sniff*