Why do the gracies disagree with some ufc black belts?

[KaneThePhoenix]

Some wrestlers are very good wrestlers who have also added submissions to their games. So their wrestling is great, their jiu-jitsu more of an afterthought. Jon Jones is perhaps one of the best examples of this. A decorated wrestler who showed a knack for subs and has submitted two or three black belts, as well as tossing around others. Great wrestler, but I believe he only just got his blue belt in jiu-jitsu.

On the other hand, some wrestlers (and regular fighters) have or are probably deserving of their black belts. Diaz bros, like them or not, have put in their time, submitted opponents in and out of the cage, and exhibited high levels of proficiency on the ground. Rockhold has submitted multiple opponents in the cage, and I believe it was Roger Gracie who said he could easily hand with some of the best in the world. Coming from them (and him in particular), that's high praise. Weidman had Galvao in a fully locked D'arce choke after I think 3 years of training, and ended up losing by something like 2 pts. And that was years ago, so I'd say Chris earned that BB. Ronda probably deserves a BJJ black or at least brown belt, if she doesn't have one already.

Fighters like Werdum, Maia, Jacare, maybe Oliveira and Gunni, are almost without question deserving of their belts.

Great Post!

10/10

 

[tasticles]

A lot of wrestling is only a 1/2 a move off of a submission, and wrestlers by far make the best JJ practitioners. Submission wrestling is arguably better than JJ because on some subs the set up is not recognized by the JJ guy, whereas every high level JJ player pretty much knows the order of subs coming at him from another JJ player. I wouldn't be too hasty to discredit wrestlers, plus we have much better tackdowns.

oh I am by no means discrediting wrestlers at all. It is certainly a strong base and it dates back much further than even jujitsu. Catch is ancient. I have long been a practitioner of Judo but I don't think I should receive a black belt from rickson in a couple months even though its 2 sides of the same coin. Sport JJ gets so advanced with gi grips, sweeps, and just the way things are done. After my time in Judo I can hang with a lot of purple belts in bjj but once it gets to brown, black belt, i am subject to not fairing too well as have many before me. There is just a lot to it and there are always similarities with any grappling art, but you have to put the time in and learn the techniques.

 

[KaneThePhoenix]

oh I am by no means discrediting wrestlers at all. It is certainly a strong base and it dates back much further than even jujitsu. Catch is ancient. I have long been a practitioner of Judo but I don't think I should receive a black belt from rickson in a couple months even though its 2 sides of the same coin. Sport JJ gets so advanced with gi grips, sweeps, and just the way things are done. After my time in Judo I can hang with a lot of purple belts in bjj but once it gets to brown, black belt, i am subject to not fairing too well as have many before me. There is just a lot to it and there are always similarities with any grappling art, but you have to put the time in and learn the techniques.

I agree. Although a guy like Barnett who has fought EVERY style in MMA and Jiu Jitsu competitions is I think is the only guy that should or could have been awarded a belt based on Competition and just how much he really knows and understands. Even if he doesn't directly compete with other MMA BJJ style fighters you have to know this guy is constantly training and rolling with low, mid and high level fighters and trainers.

I think he is very interesting to listen to in his interviews/podcasts. He is VERY learned in martial arts of any sort.

Plus I think when he retires he will make a really awesome trainer. He is working with the Invicta women now and others. It's pretty damn cool!

 

[tasticles]

I agree. Although a guy like Barnett who has fought EVERY style in MMA and Jiu Jitsu competitions is I think is the only guy that should or could have been awarded a belt based on Competition and just how much he really knows and understands. Even if he doesn't directly compete with other MMA BJJ style fighters you have to know this guy is constantly training and rolling with low, mid and high level fighters and trainers.

I think he is very interesting to listen to in his interviews/podcasts. He is VERY learned in martial arts of any sort.

Plus I think when he retires he will make a really awesome trainer. He is working with the Invicta women now and others. It's pretty damn cool!

Yeah Josh is a bad ass. I'd love to have him as a trainer. I totally understand him being awarded BB, he trains with everyone and is just an all around master. I'm sure he is plenty knowledgeable in all aspects of the game.

 

[TallGHunter]

oh I am by no means discrediting wrestlers at all. It is certainly a strong base and it dates back much further than even jujitsu. Catch is ancient. I have long been a practitioner of Judo but I don't think I should receive a black belt from rickson in a couple months even though its 2 sides of the same coin. Sport JJ gets so advanced with gi grips, sweeps, and just the way things are done. After my time in Judo I can hang with a lot of purple belts in bjj but once it gets to brown, black belt, i am subject to not fairing too well as have many before me. There is just a lot to it and there are always similarities with any grappling art, but you have to put the time in and learn the techniques.

Well, if you were putting it on everyone in his class and fighting, it'd be hard not to hand you one, which is why I think a lot of guys get their BB even thought their techniques may not be up to snuff, if this make sense, but its what I've always thought about why some guys get such quick promotions.

 

[ralphus1]

Every instructor of every discipline of martial arts has their own standards when it comes to advancement. Much has been made about Rashad's black belt, to the point where it's become a running joke in the Sherdog forums and other BJJ boards.

The fact that some of the Gracies are openly hostile to other BJJ practicioners like Eddie Bravo or anyone who doesn't follow their way of teaching just seems very narrow minded. MMA is constantly evolving and anyone who can take a technique to the next level deserves praise as opposed to criticism.

 

[beastman]

I haven't heard anything they said about Chris but I know Rashad got shit because I believe it was Rolles who give him a black belt for no gi bjj and Royler said you can't be a gracie black belt unless you train in the gi

Gracie's can/will get upset over anything. Chris got his belt from Serra/Renzo, Rashad from Rolles. Not like they got them from mcdojo's.

Chris did get pwn'd by Vinny in ADCC, but just about everyone does. http://mmablaster.blogspot.com/2011/10/video-of-day-magalhaes-v-wiedman.html

 

[BJPenn2012]

A lot of wrestling is only a 1/2 a move off of a submission, and wrestlers by far make the best JJ practitioners. Submission wrestling is arguably better than JJ because on some subs the set up is not recognized by the JJ guy, whereas every high level JJ player pretty much knows the order of subs coming at him from another JJ player. I wouldn't be too hasty to discredit wrestlers, plus we have much better tackdowns.

Hughes headlock on Almeida seems like a good example.

 

[KaneThePhoenix]

Every instructor of every discipline of martial arts has their own standards when it comes to advancement. Much has been made about Rashad's black belt, to the point where it's become a running joke in the Sherdog forums and other BJJ boards.

The fact that some of the Gracies are openly hostile to other BJJ practicioners like Eddie Bravo or anyone who doesn't follow their way of teaching just seems very narrow minded. MMA is constantly evolving and anyone who can take a technique to the next level deserves praise as opposed to criticism.

I really wish they would simply use different names. Some of these guys are barely even related to each other. Some are direct family obviously but they are way too negative. They have good breakdowns but play favorites on their channel. It does make it hard to swallow when they repeatedly bash other fighters even though they have never directly trained with the ones they are ball busting.

They always know a guy that knows 3 other dudes and they all rolled with this and that and this and that seen 1 guy that actually trained with Rashad but he was gone the one day Rashad was at practice so therefore Rashad must suck at BJJ!

MMAth>Gracie Logic

Certain Gracies have a toxic air about them. The few true warriors are all the ones trained under the old breed. Royce, Rickson (Rousey by ARMBAR!) and Royler. The other ones are simply weird cousins, black sheep and Renzo "Real Life Kick Ass" Gracie.

As Chael would say "MMA would be really boring without the Gracie Family though, bless their goofy playin' in the mud, carrot feeding, excuse making Brazilian hearts".

/Sarcasm. I really do enjoy watching the Gracie family. MMA simply wouldn't be the same without them.

 

[tasticles]

Well, if you were putting it on everyone in his class and fighting, it'd be hard not to hand you one, which is why I think a lot of guys get their BB even thought their techniques may not be up to snuff, if this make sense, but its what I've always thought about why some guys get such quick promotions.

Well now that ive really thought about it, its difficult to decide. In one hand if a guy can compete in BB division and win in bjj, that is a testament to his skill and he deserves it. However, he is probably not the best person to be teaching bjj fundamentals at the gym despite being good in his own right. I think we need to have a happy medium somewhere. It's kind of BS when you have elite wrestlers that stay stuck at white belt for 3 years. So I see it from both sides. Teach a solid wrestler submission defense and he is potentially a very dangerous weapon. Besides you have world class bjj guys like anthony perosh who are extremely good in their top game, but kind of suck off their back. So i do see what you're saying and it makes sense. I wish there was a set standard in every art.

 

[cambo78]

I lost a lot of respect for the Gracies [mainly Rickson] after the Zulu interview on sherdog when he shed light on how the Gracies [Helio, Rorion and Rickson] made rules for him [no closed fist punches or kicking on the ground] for his fights with Rickson but Rickson was allowed to do whatever he wanted. Those fights are Rickson's "claim to fame" and are promoted by the Gracies as a NHB/Vale Tudo match.

Zulu was known for his punching/kicking power and was trained by Valdemar Santana [the man who knocked Helio Gracie out with a soccer kick] so basically they took away his main weapons and then boast about Rickson beating him.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I lost a lot of respect for the Gracies [mainly Rickson] after the Zulu interview on sherdog when he shed light on how the Gracies [Helio, Rorion and Rickson] made rules for him [no closed fist punches or kicking on the ground] for his fights with Rickson but Rickson was allowed to do whatever he wanted. Those fights are Rickson's "claim to fame" and are promoted by the Gracies as a NHB/Vale Tudo match.

Zulu was known for his punching/kicking power and was trained by Valdemar Santana [the man who knocked Helio Gracie out with a soccer kick] so basically they took away his main weapons and then boast about Rickson beating him.

That is extremely shitty. Did not know that. When I saw the Zulu/Rickson fights on VHS tape like 20 years ago (with a BJJ partisan crowd), they told me that Zulu chose to fight with open hands because he fought so often and didn't want to break his hands punching with a closed fist.

Sounds like typical Gracie ego and self-promotion though. Every major fight they've done since Helio/Kimura has had special rules or some other kind of built-in excuse.

 

[ShreddinMMA]

It's not hard to figure out, and it makes sense.

A BB in BJJ should go to someone who has mastered the BJJ style. Which requires training in the gi.

Just because someone, like Rashad, is a good grappler who can hang with BBs on the ground in no gi doesn't mean they should get a black belt. They haven't mastered the style and might not know THAT MUCH about the art.

Look at it this way. If a blue belt were to go up to Rashad, who is a black belt, and ask him how to perform a bow and arrow choke in the gi, do you think he'd know how? Probably not. He hasn't mastered the BJJ style.

A black belt means you can teach pure BJJ. Rashad can't teach pure BJJ, he doesn't know how.

 

[BROKENSPROKET]

I read an article about one of the gracies believing that some of the people in the ufc like rashad evans and chris weidman. I think rashad evans and chris weidman deserve the black belt because chris weidman actually trains with one of the gracies and practices bjj but i don't know about rashad evans i don't know that much about his brazilian jiu jitsu but i do know that chris weidman and rashad evans are both elite wrestlers, why do the gracies disagree? And does anyone else disagree with this?

Why didn't you post a link to the article you read?

You don't want others to read it and so people can only comment on what YOU had to say about it?

fucking lazy

 

[HIMBOB]

If you don't train gi you shouldn't have a black otherwise it would require an extensive review of skills to say if black is warranted.

 

[stevenseagle]

Gracies gonna Gracies

 

[Taric]

Both Rashad and Weidman were given their black belts directly by a Gracie lol. Who ever is complaining is pretty dumb.

Rolles Gracie

Renzo Gracie