Why do BJJ/MMA people think wrestling is only takedowns?

[2om30]

because they're idiots

 

[Uchi Mata]

For the record, here's the answer to this thread:

Because most of the groundwork in MMA is guard-centered, and very little of wrestling groundwork is applicable to sport BJJ. Therefore BJJ/MMA people only see the takedown side of things, and the holding someone down side of things ("laying on the guy" for some people), because that's the aspect of MMA where wrestlers tend to excel. Taking someone down and keeping him there. Which is basically the whole idea of the sport of wrestling, save for the pin which comes after the takedown and control.

I feel like most of the BJJ guys who have transitioned to MMA have been primarily guard players, I can only think of a few guys with a dominant top style in BJJ who have come to MMA, and they've typically done pretty well. Ricardo Arona is probably the best example, but all the old Carlson/BTT guys had that strong top game that made them absolute beasts in the cage/ring. BJJ is great for learning how to play on top and stay in control, but as you pointed out guys get intrigued by the guard (and sport BJJ rewards guard play so much) and then when they try MMA they don't have the TDs or top control to really smash people. Wrestling forces you to have a dominant top game, whereas BJJ doesn't.

I've been doing BJJ for a while and only now am I starting to work specifically on finding the best ways to hold people down and maintain control. I got some from Judo, which is why I think I never thought much about it in BJJ, but it's an important skill in its own right and one we in the BJJ community probably under-emphasize.

 

[td82394]

Well, because the majority of people are misinformed. And really, I mean, it goes both ways. The very word "wrestling" is merely a synonym for grappling. And yet, we've somehow managed to seperate "wrestling" from "grappling". The only difference between wrestling and brazilian jiu jitsu is the rule set.

But no, even if we're going to think inside the box, then wrestling is still not just about takedowns. There's so much that high level wrestlers can teach BJJ guys about the turtle position, from top and bottom.

 

[BJJ Beginner]

Because whenever a wrestling or judo technique other than a takedown becomes popular in the BJJ world, BJJ players adopt it as their own and forget where it comes from.

 

[Einarr]

Whenever I hear someone talking about wrestling they are actually just referring to takedowns whenever it is someone from the mma or bjj world. I hear it all of the time, non stop. There is sooooo much more to wrestling than just takedowns. That would be like saying BJJ only mean about having someone in your guard and executing submissions from there, but it's not. In wrestling my coach said he actually hated the neutral position (when both guys are on the feet) and preferred being being on the ground on top. There are moves like half nelsons, barbwire, dog tail, 2 on 1, crossface, cradle, leg ride, iowa ride, tight waist chop, tight waist far ankle, chicken wing and cross wrist, chicken wing, double chicken wing, 2 on 1 tilt, dogtail tilt, stand ups, sit outs, switches, hip heist, granby roll, peterson roll, head and arm pin, reverse half, etc. Just to name some wrestling moves that are done on the ground. Yes, wrestling is the dominant TD art, but its not just TD's. BJJ has the best attacks from the bottom, but its not just bottom game. So why do people think wrestling is only takedowns??

Because 95% of wrestling groundwork is worthless when you add chokes and jointlocks. The relevant part of wrestling for MMA and BJJ is the takedowns, TDD and ability to stay on top that wrestling teaches.

 

[Ishaq]

Because BJJ and MMA guys don't really rate wrestlers for their ground fighting skills.

Wrestlers are quite good at maintaining top control but other than that, their ground fighting skills are pretty shallow.

People have just come to terms with it. If you want to learn striking you learn boxing or muay thai. If you want to learn takedowns and clinch, you learn wrestling/sambo etc. Lastly, if you want to learn ground fighting, you learn jiu jitsu.

These are what the three arts offer and none of them can suffice for the other.

 

[esteven]

Wrestling and BJJ have different objectives on the ground; wrestling groundwork is expertly suited to getting and keeping your opponent's back on the mat. In BJJ, that isn't the objective, so the methods used in wrestling aren't ideal. Obviously there's a lot of cross-over, but the differences on the ground exist for a reason. In other words, we do some things the same because those things are pretty universal in grappling. We do some things differently because those differences are specifically tailored to our needs, and using wresting techniques in BJJ (and vice versa) is counter-productive.

On the feet, however, the goal is exactly the same: Get your opponent on the ground and underneath you. Wrestlers (since their ground objectives are much simpler than BJJer's) put a bigger emphasis on the takedown. This means that wrestling TDs are better thatn BJJ TDs (which is really not even a thing).

BJJ guys don't much care about what wrestlers do differently on the ground, because we have better ways of doing what we need to do there.

 

[eembach]

Leg rides single and double, standups, front headlocks, crab ride, granby roll, sprawl, spiral ride, claw ride, hip heist and bridge, half Nelson, figure four, Saturday night ride, head and arm pinning, chin whip pinning, leg ride defenses, just some of the folk style ground work that has aided in my BJJ

 

[selfcritical]

Are you ... trolling? Most wrestling matches only have 1 round out of 3 where the match starts on the feet. The other 2 most likely start in referee's position (on the ground). One guy can choose neutral, but most people choose bottom because more points can be scored.

Most wrestling matches aren't US folkstyle. People don't only live in the US, and the ground work in freestyle and in most folk styles outside the US and former soviet republics (Mongolian wrestling, sumo, most of the african styles) as well as greco has minimal groundwork due to ruleset.

 

[dalexan242]

Why not just start with BJJ? 4 years of wrestling or 4 years of grappling when you are wanting to be grappling at the end of those 4 years, I don't really see how it's a hard choice. Of course if you can do both do both, great. If you can find a Catch Wrestling place, and do BJJ, for those 4 years THAT'S the ticket.

Wrestlers develop a fear of being on their backs. For wrestlers the biggest vulnerability for you will be to remember that being on your back is not ok, and you can't afford to relax and look for an opening. Your knowledge of positional transitions are nice, but in BJJ, a lot of your escape & reversal game depends on taking your time, relaxing, and picking the right moment to make your move. In HS wrestling, you don't have time--you have to get off your back NOW. High School wrestling also lacks the sub-game grappling has. That's why I recommend Catch, it has a sub-game to go with it.

Depending on the collegiate level, the intensity of competition makes up for the differences between the sports...now if you'd ever be a collegiate level wrestler without wrestling in High School? Well that's another story entirely.

My son is only 7 now but trains in judo, BJJ and wrestling. Even if there was a catch school around here that offered daily classes from an experienced instructor, I would be extremely disappointed if he chose to do catch wrestling instead of wrestling for his HS team (assuming he's still enthusiastic about grappling then as he is now).

As it is, at least in the US I doubt if there are many catch schools around that can offer the level of instruction, intensity, frequency of classes, variety of training partners or competition opportunities that a grappler can get in wrestling (or BJJ or judo). If he feels he needs to fill some holes in his grappling game, there would be plenty of time to check out catch (or sambo) after his scholastic wrestling opportunities had expired.

 

[youngsteinel]

Pardon my ignorance, but I am intrigued by the moves you call Barbwire and The Dog Tail. What exactly are those moves?

Barbwire is also called the corkscrew and probably has other names as well(pretty sure that's what he is talking about). You have the arm in a cross face cradle position, reach under with your other arm, and walk it around the head. I hadn't heard barbwire until a year or two ago.