Why do BJJ/MMA people think wrestling is only takedowns?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Grapplingwizard**, Jan 1, 2013.

  1. Grapplingwizard**

    Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    Whenever I hear someone talking about wrestling they are actually just referring to takedowns whenever it is someone from the mma or bjj world. I hear it all of the time, non stop. There is sooooo much more to wrestling than just takedowns. That would be like saying BJJ only mean about having someone in your guard and executing submissions from there, but it's not. In wrestling my coach said he actually hated the neutral position (when both guys are on the feet) and preferred being being on the ground on top. There are moves like half nelsons, barbwire, dog tail, 2 on 1, crossface, cradle, leg ride, iowa ride, tight waist chop, tight waist far ankle, chicken wing and cross wrist, chicken wing, double chicken wing, 2 on 1 tilt, dogtail tilt, stand ups, sit outs, switches, hip heist, granby roll, peterson roll, head and arm pin, reverse half, etc. Just to name some wrestling moves that are done on the ground. Yes, wrestling is the dominant TD art, but its not just TD's. BJJ has the best attacks from the bottom, but its not just bottom game. So why do people think wrestling is only takedowns??
     
  2. TheHereticJay

    TheHereticJay I scoff at your belt rankings

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    Because... wrestling is all about takedowns. All that other stuff isn't REALLY wrestling. It's just stuff you do after the takedown, AKA the important part.
     
  3. Grapplingwizard**

    Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    Are you ... trolling? Most wrestling matches only have 1 round out of 3 where the match starts on the feet. The other 2 most likely start in referee's position (on the ground). One guy can choose neutral, but most people choose bottom because more points can be scored.
     
  4. TheHereticJay

    TheHereticJay I scoff at your belt rankings

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    From the bottom..where he gets a point for escaping and then more for when he executes a takedown on his standing/ kneeling opponent depending on the position taken by the opponent... so once again comes back to takedowns.
     
  5. Dirty Holt

    Dirty Holt Black Belt Professional Fighter

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    Pardon my ignorance, but I am intrigued by the moves you call Barbwire and The Dog Tail. What exactly are those moves?
     
  6. Grapplingwizard**

    Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    He could also hit a switch. Also your opponent could chose bottom, putting you on top. So yeah, TD's are a huge part of wrestling, half of it, but the other half is moves from top or bottom.
     
  7. Grapplingwizard**

    Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    Kind of hard to explain here on sherdog, but I'll do my best. You probably know these moves but by a different name. A barbwire is a crossface with the arm but you put your free arm under their body and grab the same arm you are grabbing with your crossface arm combo. from there you walk around the head. a Dogtail comes from a 2 on 1, when you have the 2on1 and then let go with one hand and reach in between his legs through the crotch and regrab his arm, then let go with the hand that is still grabbing the arm and reconnect that one also after his arm is threaded between his legs.
     
  8. pheonix5

    pheonix5 Purple Belt

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    In relation to MMA none of these are submissions(although a chicken wing sucks). Wrestling is all about getting top position and staying there. I will say wrestling has good clinch work when you have someone against a wall or cage not allowing them to have space which is good for dirty boxing.
     
  9. Grapplingwizard**

    Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    Just because they are not submissions doesn't mean they are bad. A guard pass isn't a submission but definitely a good move. Cain velasquez uses 2 on 1 wrist control, cross wrist control, tight waists, and iowa rides all the time.
     
  10. snoop dogg***

    snoop dogg*** Baby Heath goon$quad

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    because wrestlers focus more on take downs than bjj guys. and bjj guys focus more on subs than wrestlers. pretty simple
     
  11. Grapplingwizard**

    Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    I know. But referring to only the guard as jiu jitsu and nothing else would be retarded. the same goes for wrestling
     
  12. phillys-finest

    phillys-finest Red Belt

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    Im trying to figure out if the barbwire as you call it is the same as a double bubble...:confused:
     
  13. Ryan Wagner**

    Ryan Wagner** Purple Belt

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    Because takedowns are directly applicable to BJJ/MMA. We know about the groundwork but do not discuss it in a BJJ/MMA specific context because a lot of it has no useful application. Nobody's going to say "I think Cane's cradle will give him the edge over JDS!" because there is no purpose served by doing that in an MMA bout.

    We refer Jiu Jitsu as a whole when discussing MMA because nearly all of it applies practically to MMA; the same cannot be said with the groundwork of wrestling. We refer to more than the guard because it is useful for other situation one will find themselves in during an MMA fight. If we were talking about defending yourself from an attacker who is on your back with your stomach facing the ground, the framework of Jiu Jitsu discussed will be much more limited than a broad topic such as a fight.
     
  14. JudoYourDayUp

    JudoYourDayUp Orange Belt

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    you know, when I clicked on this thread, I really didn't expect to see much of merit, but I was partly wrong. I have to say that I don't think I've heard it explained this way before. Although there is certainly more to be gained from wrestling in an mma context than just takedowns, this is an interesting thing to think about.
     
  15. Grapplingwizard**

    Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    Yes, a cradle isn't going to be used in MMA. But 2 on 1, tight waists, iowa rides, half nelsons, and wrist control (1 on 1 version of 2 on 1) are all useful in mma. Same with Switches, sit outs, stand ups, and everything you do on bottom. Most guys now a days are going on all fours and using wrestling moves rather than going to their back and playing guard.
     
  16. Ryan Wagner**

    Ryan Wagner** Purple Belt

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    This doesn't alter the fact that takedowns are the most useful (in an MMA context) techniques from wrestling disciplines. BJJ doesn't have one thing that is indisputably most applicable to MMA, as all BJJ positions and the vast majority of techniques translate very well. Not only are takedowns the most useful tool from wrestling, but they apply to everyone; everyone needs to have knowledge regarding takedowns, whether it's how to execute them or how to defend them. Half nelson defense isn't a prerequisite to being an effective fighter, TDD and general BJJ knowledge are.

    Regarding the bolded section: It might be more common to see wrestling moves than intentional guard pulling (which is not often seen for obvious reasons) but there is no way that you see more wrestling ground work (half nelsons, etc.) than BJJ ground work or even guard work. Techniques such as half nelsons have little use in MMA. Leg rides and switches are very useful, but the fact remains that a large part of wrestling groundwork is not.

    When someone's back is taken in MMA the focus is on defending the choke/getting to a position where his opponent is unable to choke him, just as the focus is usually on applying a submission when one has back control. By itself, this eliminates a large portion of wrestling-specific groundwork.
     
  17. OodlesofNoodle

    OodlesofNoodle Green Belt

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    Dynamite OP, the "Dog Tail" goes by the Ball and Chain around here but I emphatically agree with you, some things as simple as switches and sitouts could dramatically change a scenario.
     
  18. Daniel Tapia

    Daniel Tapia Green Belt

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    Wrestling is a tremendous martial art. Absolutely tremendous.
     
  19. KJGould

    KJGould Silver Belt

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    I've also heard ball & chain referred to an ankle ride, depending who you ask. You become the ball attached to his leg, essentially. But yeah, I've also heard the ball & chain described similarly to the dog tail, think I've heard it called a pump handle too.
     
  20. Dedication

    Dedication White Belt

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    To answer your question TS, because most of the general population probably limits wrestling with takedowns.

    Personally, I have found great success applying wrestling transitions, and using wrestling to supplement my BJJ. I find it especially relevant in scramble situations, or really that there is no longer a scramble position, there is me knowing roughly what I want to do, and you having no idea because BJJ doesn't work enough on scrambling, in my opinion. And no, I didn't have a high-school wrestling background. I began with BJJ, and learned catch as catch can shortly after starting. It makes for an interesting perspective change.

    I don't really advocate high-school, maybe collegiate wrestling, as a base; I do however recommend catch-wrestling as a supplement.

    I don't consider myself an MMA guy, a BJJ guy, or a Catch-Guy, or a Judo guy, or a Sambo guy, or shirtless-mongolian-whatever guy, I am a *grappler*. I am after everything from everywhere to find my gameplan.
     

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