Why did the UFC try to kill soccerkick MMA??

[-guerilla-]

again, you avoided what i said. kerr and coleman were better freestyle wrestlers. what part of that is hard to understand?

not only that, but a fresh mark kerr took fujita down almost immediately in the fight, and then again later. it literally took kerr 13 seconds to dump fujita on the mat (and keep him there). it was only when the full fledged junkie kerr completely gassed that fujita got a takedown and kerr essentially quit.

and lol at the idea that fujita wasn't as juiced as they were.

I caught your point

it was just diversionary so i reminded you we were talking about MMA, put u back in line

Stop trying to change
the subject

I Never said fujita didn't juice but coleman kerr and randallman were off the charts

They all showed massive susceptibility to soccerkick MMA and freestyle wrestling tactics

Cro cop, Fedor and Fujita especially ran thru um like soft better

Soft juiced folkstyle butter

Mark kerr was DOMINANT in UFC however was SMOKED in pride

Coleman won a tournament at his juicy heights but soon fell victem to the superior freestyle takedowns and crushing soccerkick tactics that render folkstyle less effective

Askern is literally the one and only "dominant" folkstyle athlete in SOCCERKICK MMA and he is considered VERY unorthodox for a folkie

he only won 6 whole fights in one and guess what he finally ate it on

a knee

I told you...

Knees kill WRESTLERS

Thats why the NERF EM so hardcore in UFC

 

[-guerilla-]

I thought the whole point of soccer kick is hitting the opponent in the head, head is round shaped similar to a soccer ball, hence the term soccer kick?

probably an argument of semantics but the soccer kick motion is often called as such to the body when it has happened in the ufc

I use it as a catch all term for "kick em while they're down" MMA

I understand the stomp but its ridiculous to ban all knees and kicks to an opponant who has a knee or one hand down (wrestlers welfare)

 

[wake_me]

I use it as a catch all term for "kick em while they're down" MMA

I understand the stomp but its ridiculous to ban all knees and kicks to an opponant who has a knee or one hand down (wrestlers welfare)

no knees on the ground is a piss off. it really opens up the ground game

 

[moreorless87]

In terms of knees on the ground as an offencive weapon and different wrestling styles it seems to me that freestyle and Greco both had the advantage over folkstyle that they focused more on dominant positions, so getting side control or north/south where as folkstyle only wrestlers seem to preffer back riding or hanging around in guard more.

 

[-guerilla-]

no knees on the ground is a piss off. it really opens up the ground game

i suggest that was the point entirely as american athletes were HORRIBLE at throwing knees and only so-so with their kicking

this rule is designed to advantage american wrestlers

 

[-guerilla-]

In terms of knees on the ground as an offencive weapon and different wrestling styles it seems to me that freestyle and Greco both had the advantage over folkstyle that they focused more on dominant positions, so getting side control or north/south where as folkstyle only wrestlers seem to preffer back riding or hanging around in guard more.

IMO the wrestling styles are most different in that freestyle and Greco allow MANY MORE take downs and throws as compared to folkstyle that is nerfed down to a very unique ground game of primarially turning a guy from turtle to his back

Wrestling is best at standing grappling and GIless BJJ is best for the ground game

problem is that BJJ is becoming RIDICULOUS with the sport aspect

 

[moreorless87]

IMO the wrestling styles are most different in that freestyle and Greco allow MANY MORE take downs and throws as compared to folkstyle that is nerfed down to a very unique ground game of primarially turning a guy from turtle to his back

Wrestling is best at standing grappling and GIless BJJ is best for the ground game

problem is that BJJ is becoming RIDICULOUS with the sport aspect

I'd agree some sport BJJ does seem to be evolving away from skills that are easy to use in a real fight, I spose you could argue Aoki used that kind of style well in his prime but with a higher level of speed and athleticism.

I mean not all US wrestlers were terrible with knees, Coleman did actually become a more aggressive grappler by the time he was in Pride going beyond guard to beat Igor for example but he did have significant Freestyle experience.

Again though I think the big issue with knees and soccer kicks is more how they effect other action, the threat of them stops fighters carrying out certain tactics we see more of. Indeed I think Khabib's success for me I partly based on countering this, he exploits that so many fighters depend on "just stand up" tactics to escape the ground by chaining takedowns, tieing them up and improving position. With knees and soccer kicks though those tactics become even harder, escaping the ground needed a proper escape/sweep back then. Today so many fighters get up in a fashion that would get them punted or kneed in the face if they'd tried it in Pride.

 

[-guerilla-]

I'd agree some sport BJJ does seem to be evolving away from skills that are easy to use in a real fight, I spose you could argue Aoki used that kind of style well in his prime but with a higher level of speed and athleticism.

I mean not all US wrestlers were terrible with knees, Coleman did actually become a more aggressive grappler by the time he was in Pride going beyond guard to beat Igor for example but he did have significant Freestyle experience.

Again though I think the big issue with knees and soccer kicks is more how they effect other action, the threat of them stops fighters carrying out certain tactics we see more of. Indeed I think Khabib's success for me I partly based on countering this, he exploits that so many fighters depend on "just stand up" tactics to escape the ground by chaining takedowns, tieing them up and improving position. With knees and soccer kicks though those tactics become even harder, escaping the ground needed a proper escape/sweep back then. Today so many fighters get up in a fashion that would get them punted or kneed in the face if they'd tried it in Pride.

Yes certainly

soccer kicks and knees really make a huge difference in the stand up/ Escape Game however my personal opinion about Mark Coleman/ randallmans knees is that they were near worthless and in fact allowed a lot of fighters to improve position or escape the hold down

If I were their coach I would suggest that they hold someone down and use elbows and punches to do the most damage frankly I don't remember Randleman or Coleman ever scoring a knee stoppage with exception for that ridiculous matchup in Pride with versus that Japanese tomato can what was his name?

The fact is it takes many years to become proficient with knees so the suggestion that you can just allow a wrestler to throw them and thus they will have an advantage as compared to the soccer kick expert knocking their head off on the takedown attempt...

there is no debate

knees kill wrestlers

 

[-guerilla-]

I can see why this series freaked people out but this crap would be worthless against any decent fighter

In his career Randleman 8 far more knees than he delivered



That said I freaking love Kevin Randleman...rest in peace big fella

# no roids kids

 

[Avenchi]

It's only kinda related, i just got that idea in my head and i don't know where to post it.
Are punches to the neck (adam's apple) allowed? How dangerous would it be? Or knees/soccer kicks to the neck?

 

[-guerilla-]

It's only kinda related, i just got that idea in my head and i don't know where to post it.
Are punches to the neck (adam's apple) allowed? How dangerous would it be? Or knees/soccer kicks to the neck?

No organized sport in human history has allowed strikes to the throat...its DEADLY

the trachea can crush and the attachment point of the spine and skull is another area nobody strikes without intent to kill

do a few ride along with law enforcement or bar security professionals

people have died from one hard blow to theses areas

of course these are not pro athletes and circumstances are wildly variable

 

[moreorless87]

I can see why this series freaked people out but this crap would be worthless against any decent fighter

In his career Randleman 8 far more knees than he delivered



That said I freaking love Kevin Randleman...rest in peace big fella

# no roids kids

Generally if someone was really getting worked with knees, soccer kicks or stomps in Pride it tended to be a sign of significant skill and/or tactical weakness.

When the very best fought the best they were very rarely a direct factor(beyond sometimes fighting already hurt fighters) in the outcome because fighters knew how to avoid them. It was much more a case of how they effected other action, stopping certain tactics.

Probably the biggest issue is that the whole idea of the turtle position was almost non existent in Pride, whether it was people shooting and ending up in that position or hurt fighters it was just so vunerable to being kneed or soccer kicked you either had to avoid it entirely or very quickly shift back to open guard.

 

[McDego]

Stomps and soccer kicks seem more like street fighting, I suppose. They also impose a lot of danger on the fighters.

Knees to the head on the ground and 12-6 elbows both need to be allowed. For fuck's sake!!

 

[-guerilla-]

Stomps and soccer kicks seem more like street fighting, I suppose. They also impose a lot of danger on the fighters.

Knees to the head on the ground and 12-6 elbows both need to be allowed. For fuck's sake!!

I would like to see the safety stats on soccerkick MMA vs safespace mma

many more knockouts after they introduced gloves to boxing as now the fighter wouldn't break their hands and could throw 10x harder

 

[-guerilla-]

Generally if someone was really getting worked with knees, soccer kicks or stomps in Pride it tended to be a sign of significant skill and/or tactical weakness.

When the very best fought the best they were very rarely a direct factor(beyond sometimes fighting already hurt fighters) in the outcome because fighters knew how to avoid them. It was much more a case of how they effected other action, stopping certain tactics.

Probably the biggest issue is that the whole idea of the turtle position was almost non existent in Pride, whether it was people shooting and ending up in that position or hurt fighters it was just so vunerable to being kneed or soccer kicked you either had to avoid it entirely or very quickly shift back to open guard.

Turtle is suicide in soccerkick MMA

thats how Judo and wrestling went so wrong and BJJ took over the martial arts world...then they started buttscooting and lost it back to the wrestlers and soccerkickers

 

[moreorless87]

Turtle is suicide in soccerkick MMA

thats how Judo and wrestling went so wrong and BJJ took over the martial arts world...then they started buttscooting and lost it back to the wrestlers and soccerkickers

The biggest issue with BJJ(and no gi sub grappling) I'd say is that its lost a lot of its connection with MMA, its become popular enough that fighters can earn big money training/fighting, so fewer of them shift to MMA and the sport itself becomes less directly relatable to MMA. That's quite different from BJJ up to the 00's and always seemed to exist somewhat to test itself in NHB fighting at the highest level.

Beyond specifics I think removing knees, soccer kicks, etc from MMA has made the different aspects of the sport more disconnected. You have striking and you have grappling with fewer links between the two and transitions being less important.

 

[McDego]

I would like to see the safety stats on soccerkick MMA vs safespace mma

many more knockouts after they introduced gloves to boxing as now the fighter wouldn't break their hands and could throw 10x harder

I'm not sure how you could measure the safety stats?

Knees to a grounded opponent should definitely be allowed, in my opinion, as well as 12-6 elbows.

Knees on the ground would actually benefit a shitload of wrestlers as well as sprawlers, and we'd see a lot more finishes. GSP would probably have finished a lot more fights this way. Tito was a monster with knees on the ground. It would definitely deter a lot of wrestlers from shooting in carelessly. Would change up the game a LOT.

Soccer kicks and stomps just seem very unsportsmanlike and dangerous. You can get a lot of fucking torque and seriously injure somebody with that shit.

 

[-guerilla-]

The biggest issue with BJJ(and no gi sub grappling) I'd say is that its lost a lot of its connection with MMA, its become popular enough that fighters can earn big money training/fighting, so fewer of them shift to MMA and the sport itself becomes less directly relatable to MMA. That's quite different from BJJ up to the 00's and always seemed to exist somewhat to test itself in NHB fighting at the highest level.

Beyond specifics I think removing knees, soccer kicks, etc from MMA has made the different aspects of the sport more disconnected. You have striking and you have grappling with fewer links between the two and transitions being less important.

Such is the nature of sports specific gamesmanship

Its ruined many a combat sport that of course was initially intended to be a combat analog and thus we betray its original intention to its detriment

I completely agree with safety requirements imposed in most situations however knees on the ground and kicks on the ground carry no more kinetic energy than in most of the ranges however hitting the back of the head/soft tissue/single digit (all those types of a attacks) have been illegal since the dawn of man for a very good reason

they are so damaging that they will render an athlete so injuried they will never attain the level of skills possible under "safer" circumstances

 

[-guerilla-]

I'm not sure how you could measure the safety stats?

Knees to a grounded opponent should definitely be allowed, in my opinion, as well as 12-6 elbows.

Knees on the ground would actually benefit a shitload of wrestlers as well as sprawlers, and we'd see a lot more finishes. GSP would probably have finished a lot more fights this way. Tito was a monster with knees on the ground. It would definitely deter a lot of wrestlers from shooting in carelessly. Would change up the game a LOT.

Soccer kicks and stomps just seem very unsportsmanlike and dangerous. You can get a lot of fucking torque and seriously injure somebody with that shit.

I completely understand your view but I disagree that ground knees benefit wrestlers

as a long time wrestling/MMA coach who consistently fielded fighters from his wrestling program I can tell you that wrestlers are very uncomfortable and rarely proficient at throwing knees

wrestlers best fight strategy is to keep their center of gravity away from you while they strike you with their hands only throwing a 1/2 power knee when they have an awesome tie up and virtually never kicking

when you throw any knee or a kick your center of gravity (hips) are easy to grab so wrestlers shouldn't be throwing knees and kicks as it puts them at a distinct disadvantage

I firmly believe that wrestling will be relegated to a pretty minimal status in the coming years as the MMA Striking game gets better and better

mediocre wrestlers that are excellent Strikers will dominate

High level elite wrestlers will be pushed out and guys like jon jones (mediocre wrestlers) who are excellent strikers will take over

the Soviet block has a distinct advantage as they have been investing heavily in grappling and combat sports for many decades while Americans prefer to play with their balls

(Literally)

 

[-guerilla-]