Why aren't there wrestling gyms?

[rmongler]

I know that but I was thinking more in line what apsects are fundamental to a good strong base that allows you to not be taken down and be in position to take down others. Or what are necessary broad skills to take down and control an opponent is it breaking their posture (greco roman), getting better leverage on them/ underneath them, or getting around themand attacking at an angle with better footwork (what is good footwork in context of wrestling)?

For instance in boxing some things that are fundamental to having a good stance that keeps you from getting hit more than necessary like keeping your head off the centerline, and staying at an angle to minimize surface area to be hit, keeping your weighted shifted more towards the back foot to maximize distance from opponents hands (and give more time to react), etc. So there has to be similar stuff for wrestling and grappling in general.

I can't speak for jack but i assume his advice was to look for a coach or training partner whose idea of wrestling extends beyond 'change levels and grab single legs'.

Id est, if they can teach about things like riding, short offense, chain and counter wrestling sequences, clinchwork, and so on, which usually also entails a deeper perspective in what underlines the business.

In terms of basics like stance and motion these are things a coach can tell in like 30 minutes of meeting him, and in longer detail could fill out a book before you could fit in one post, so perhaps the real question is what value you should be looking to get out of discourse like this, which usually means those aforementioned discussions of techniques, strategies, and procedures between characters with already some degree of mutual familiarity with the matter. A lot of beginner questions essentially end up taking the form of 'how do i get training to be a better grappler before i actually do any training', which as someone already with experience in a combat sport im sure you might recognize.

So i suppose the best advice right now (besides finding a coach and or training partners and getting to the training already), is lurking more. Watch film of competition in leisure time, to start noticing the patterns of how the game works; observe conversations between other practitioners, to see what concerns them and how they speak about it; even watch instructionals if you like. Anything and everything that builds more detail into the 'mental world' called 'grappling' in one's mind.

 

[Jeff Goldblum69]

Because it's hard to sell the general public on wrestling for self-defense, fitness, etc. The only people who would be interested in joining a wrestling-only gym are fighters or wannabes. Unfortunately it's the soccer
moms and hobbyists who keep the doors open, not the fighters.

At least with judo or BJJ there are competitions with divisions based on age and experience. How many local wrestling tourneys are there for 30 year old beginners to take part in?

Also, Galt?

to be honest where I live their aren’t many Judo gyms either .. most are part of universities like wrestling

 

[shunyata]

So your “example” was a low AA who wrestled in high school.. I’m the 80s.. could you please give more than one example?

Especially since that one example can have a lot of his success attributed to good hips/athleticism and body length.. the reach back stuff he got away with are nothing new and I highly doubt not freak athlete judoka are going to be hitting that move on serious high school kids.

I’m well aware of the excuse, ahem, “arguments” Judi people make for why they aren’t in the conversation more.

Thing is. Pretty much all the “Judo” athletes in MMA seem to run into brick walls when their opponent actually has a competent level of wrestling and striking. I used to be more amenable to the judo “reasons” for not more success.. but I keep seeing the recurring pattern of only doing well against grapplers clueless on their feet

In my experience cross training from youth judo into sport jiu jitsu and nogi, most (not all) of judo worked and could be adapted but you had to blend it in with wrestling and sambo/jiu jitsu or that hole in your game would get blown up when running into someone better in that vector.

I always felt like you had to had have judo + bjj + sub grappling and all the wrestling that goes with it to have the "real" jiu jitsu.

And that's coming from training when double leg or Morote Gari was totally cool in Judo regardless of leg grab set ups.

Judo, jiu jitsu, and wrestling don't feel that complete without each other. Maybe I'm biased and we can cut judo out, but the point is that live jiu jitsu is more than just bjj and wrestling is not alien to it.

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

I want to continue the bump on this thread because it's a massive gripe of mine.

Wrestlers always complain about how hard it is to monetize the sport and they don't get paid enough and they don't get enough publicity. There aren't enough jobs, they can't do what they love. But then, when it comes to actually spreading the sport and monetizing it like other martial arts, some are very prideful. And to be fair, that's not everyone, some more thoughtful people will say things like "wrestling practice at my MMA gym is the least attended practice." Valid concern. But jiu jitsu and muay thai and taekwondo, they didn't become popular overnight. People didn't naturally think "I want to get good at wrapping my legs around someone else's waist." Somebody thought of a way to market it, and somebody thought of a way to build a curriculum for it, develop strategies for it. If you don't market wrestling, if you don't sit down and build a wrestling-based curriculum that normal people can participate in and sell that, then it is hard to expect people to come.

The first day I went to the BJJ school I train at they sat me down and told me the story of UFC 1, the story they tell everyone, about how this little guy came in and used jiu jitsu and easily beat all these bigger guys. They didn't tell me the story of how jiu jitsu fell of in MMA and became an ancillary skill, and wrestlers came to dominate. And I remember they pointed at this small girl at the gym and said "doesn't matter how small you are, even that little girl can tap you out. Because jiu jitsu is the martial art that helps little people beat up bigger stronger people." And to this day that misconception exists, that jiu jitsu is the martial art that helps little people beat up bigger stronger people, rather than that jiu jitsu is the martial art that helps people beat other people who don't know jiu jitsu. But it's a marketing pitch, and people come because of it, and they spread the good word to their friends and so on.

And I do think jiu jitsu still has a place in a modern wrestling or grappling program. You do need to defend against basic submissions, and maybe even threaten submissions of your own. But it should not be the main point of emphasis. Things like defending takedowns, escaping from bottom, in an MMA context standing up using structures, all extremely crucial in a fight, or in avoiding a fight. Joe Rogan said "wrestling is what dictates where the fight takes place." But I'd even go a step further and say wrestling is what dictates whether a fight takes place, because the only way a person can stop you from running is by taking you to the ground and keeping you there. You go to a jiu jitsu gym, maybe you never train wrestling, maybe your gym has a "takedown unit" in the curriculum or a "takedown month." Wrestling is both more than that, and it should be a larger proportion of the curriculum than that. The spread at a BJJ gym is like 90-10 BJJ-Wrestling, if that. I think ideally it should be 70-30 Wrestling-BJJ. Your average gym has 6 days of the week which they host classes and one day open mat. I think a start would be 2 days takedowns/tdd, 2 days pins/turns/escapes, 2 days jiu jitsu, one day open mat. And maybe this is something that's improving over time, these days most wrestlers once they get to a certain level do cross-train BJJ quite a bit, whereas old school coaches didn't really cross-train, so they might be harder to integrate into a program that teaches elements of both. But as the younger generation of wrestlers that have cross-trained continues to develop, these multifaceted programs become more feasible.

Ultimately, I think the payoff could be nice. If there can be successful gyms where people can come to learn and train, it fills a need in the community. But also, it's more wrestling jobs and an extra and external source of revenue for the wrestling community. And it'd also help grow the wrestling community, which is a surprisingly small community.

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

Another objection I guess is the "it already exists" objection.

So I live in a metropolitan area, the greater area of which is home to over 2 million people, it's one of the more populated areas in the country. There are a handful of wrestling clubs in the area on the USA Wrestling Website, I looked them up. There were 3 different options that were offered to Adults.
1. No mention of adults whatsoever, so no option. This was the most prevalent option.
2. One offered a once-a-week class but when I clicked to purchase it said the product was no longer being sold.
3. One offered access to an open mat session for adults twice a week.
Now I'm of the impression that, and maybe I'm mistaken on this, many of these wrestling clubs affiliated with USA Wrestling are non-profits? So their membership fees are low but they also don't provide many or great services. They are passion projects, projects of love. So I don't mean to demean these organizations in any way, what they're offering is wonderful and perfectly in line with what you would expect from a non-profit.

If we were to judge these products as for-profit ventures, they'd be extremely lazy, half-hearted ventures. If my jiu jitsu school, for example, offered a similar product, I guarantee you no one would go.

 

[Grappler111]

I want to continue the bump on this thread because it's a massive gripe of mine.

Wrestlers always complain about how hard it is to monetize the sport and they don't get paid enough and they don't get enough publicity. There aren't enough jobs, they can't do what they love. But then, when it comes to actually spreading the sport and monetizing it like other martial arts, some are very prideful. And to be fair, that's not everyone, some more thoughtful people will say things like "wrestling practice at my MMA gym is the least attended practice." Valid concern. But jiu jitsu and muay thai and taekwondo, they didn't become popular overnight. People didn't naturally think "I want to get good at wrapping my legs around someone else's waist." Somebody thought of a way to market it, and somebody thought of a way to build a curriculum for it, develop strategies for it. If you don't market wrestling, if you don't sit down and build a wrestling-based curriculum that normal people can participate in and sell that, then it is hard to expect people to come.

The first day I went to the BJJ school I train at they sat me down and told me the story of UFC 1, the story they tell everyone, about how this little guy came in and used jiu jitsu and easily beat all these bigger guys. They didn't tell me the story of how jiu jitsu fell of in MMA and became an ancillary skill, and wrestlers came to dominate. And I remember they pointed at this small girl at the gym and said "doesn't matter how small you are, even that little girl can tap you out. Because jiu jitsu is the martial art that helps little people beat up bigger stronger people." And to this day that misconception exists, that jiu jitsu is the martial art that helps little people beat up bigger stronger people, rather than that jiu jitsu is the martial art that helps people beat other people who don't know jiu jitsu. But it's a marketing pitch, and people come because of it, and they spread the good word to their friends and so on.

And I do think jiu jitsu still has a place in a modern wrestling or grappling program. You do need to defend against basic submissions, and maybe even threaten submissions of your own. But it should not be the main point of emphasis. Things like defending takedowns, escaping from bottom, in an MMA context standing up using structures, all extremely crucial in a fight, or in avoiding a fight. Joe Rogan said "wrestling is what dictates where the fight takes place." But I'd even go a step further and say wrestling is what dictates whether a fight takes place, because the only way a person can stop you from running is by taking you to the ground and keeping you there. You go to a jiu jitsu gym, maybe you never train wrestling, maybe your gym has a "takedown unit" in the curriculum or a "takedown month." Wrestling is both more than that, and it should be a larger proportion of the curriculum than that. The spread at a BJJ gym is like 90-10 BJJ-Wrestling, if that. I think ideally it should be 70-30 Wrestling-BJJ. Your average gym has 6 days of the week which they host classes and one day open mat. I think a start would be 2 days takedowns/tdd, 2 days pins/turns/escapes, 2 days jiu jitsu, one day open mat. And maybe this is something that's improving over time, these days most wrestlers once they get to a certain level do cross-train BJJ quite a bit, whereas old school coaches didn't really cross-train, so they might be harder to integrate into a program that teaches elements of both. But as the younger generation of wrestlers that have cross-trained continues to develop, these multifaceted programs become more feasible.

Ultimately, I think the payoff could be nice. If there can be successful gyms where people can come to learn and train, it fills a need in the community. But also, it's more wrestling jobs and an extra and external source of revenue for the wrestling community. And it'd also help grow the wrestling community, which is a surprisingly small community.

You could define "Wrestling". According to UWW Wrestling is :

- Olympic styles : Freestyle wrestling, Greco Roman and woman's wrestling.

- non Olympic styles : Beach Wrestling, Grappling (nogi and gi), Pankration and traditional wrestling (a lof of styles included).

So you have takedowns/throws, submissions and striking.
Some Russian mma wrestlers with Freestyle Wrestling and greco base have also training experience in Grappling and Pankration. Two styles with a serious development in Russia ; see the next junior worlds with Freestyle, Greco and Grappling...

 

[asian-glow]

I wrestle a couple times a week at a high school. I'm able to do this because I met a kid who happens to be plugged into the local wrestling community.

 

[CorninginChristianburg]

https://atthappyvalleypa.com/submission-grappling/
I'm not in this area so I'd never benefit from this but this is kinda the concept I was going for so props to them for going for this and hopefully more people do stuff like it. I checked stuff nearer to my area and nothing of the same sort but "submission grappling" is a nice overhead title I suppose. So long as the submission portion is outweighed by the grappling portion 2-1 or so, 7-3.

 

[theRevanchist]

The Problem is more to do with Culture. In Dagestan, you have adult wrestling gyms for Hobbyists, Competitors, Fighters, and High-Level Athletes. Even older people in their 40s and 50s train, albeit at a slower pace. People from 5 - 40 Compete with the occasional older folk. There are Gyms in Western Europe that have Caucasian Diaspora that operate adult Wrestling Gyms. Modern Culture in America at least tries to push the idea that high-level training is for only Olympic Level Athletes. Also, at Dagestan University, teams are often just essential clubs. You can get the same experience in a private club. Also, in Dagestan, the Culture encourages participation more among regular working people. I agree with them. College sports can remain, but as a more or less regular part of a well-rounded education, essentially at an amateur level. The semi-pro college sports of today should be spun off into their own independent leagues—America's spectator culture and significant crowd mentality encourage major ball-related team sports.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Wrestling is hard, no one wants to pay to do that shit

 

[mattemate]

Wrestling is hard, no one wants to pay to do that shit

Jiu-jitsu and MMA are hard at tough gyms. But I guess those of us that have done that also probably have had some wrestling classes too.

I feel that people with a BJJ base usually are really interested in learning more wrestling. My gym had a wrestling class with a damn good (all American from Duke) wrestler. It was awesome. Made everyone better.

I don't know about Mississippi, but in Austin a lot of BJJ and MMA gyms have good wrestlers teaching classes, even though it's not a huge sport in Texas.

Check this out. UT doesn't even have a real fucking wrestling team! They have a CLUB. It's absurd!

 

[dsdoubled]

It's always nice when old threads get revived. Now in almost 2023 we can see things have changed with regards to wrestling access. Pretty much every fighter that used to be a good wrestler and is now operating a gym, they all are building wrestling programs for the public bc its their bread and butter and they love it. Weidman (LAW MMA), Steve Mocco (ATT), Cormier (AKA), Bader n those guys (Power MMA), the Askren Brothers, Nick Catone, Dave Esposito (Edge Hoboken), Kurt Pellegrino, Izzy Martinez, The Gilbert Brothers, and many more. All of these guys are offering wrestling classes at their gyms. It just makes financial sense to also offer other arts as well.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Jiu-jitsu and MMA are hard at tough gyms. But I guess those of us that have done that also probably have had some wrestling classes too.

I feel that people with a BJJ base usually are really interested in learning more wrestling. My gym had a wrestling class with a damn good (all American from Duke) wrestler. It was awesome. Made everyone better.

I don't know about Mississippi, but in Austin a lot of BJJ and MMA gyms have good wrestlers teaching classes, even though it's not a huge sport in Texas.

Check this out. UT doesn't even have a real fucking wrestling team! They have a CLUB. It's absurd!

If you look on the first or second page I posted 10 years ago that I offer wrestling at my place. Lol. I was probably one of the first places to offer wrestling program.

Wrestling is huge in texas. Mississippi was the last state to get USA wrestling but I’m from NY, and I’ve had a lot of good collegiate wrestlers come Through. one of my top pro athletes is a Division 1 All American who fights in One championship currently; he currently coaches my wrestling program and it’s excellent.


that said, wrestling is much harder to sell then bjj which is comparatively easy, and MMA which you can make potentially millions of dollars doing. Wrestling is hard like MMA except you can’t get paid for doing it.

 

[mattemate]

Wrestling is huge in texas. Mississippi was the last state to get USA wrestling but I’m from NY, and I’ve had a lot of good collegiate wrestlers come Through.

In Texas, football is king. But also, Texas itself is huge, so it really depends on the region. I'm from Houston. Wrestling was non-existent. I literally never met one person from Houston that wrestled. Some football teams might wrestle a bit in the off season, but there were never any tournaments.

Now, SOME schools might have programs. There was an excellent wrestler that came out of Katy High School a few years ago. In Austin, it's a bit more popular than in Houston, but still not a big deal.

As you move further north, close to Oklahoma, it's more popular. But it's still not a big deal even in Dallas. I've got one friend from Amarillo who wrestled in high school. Seems it's more popular there. He knew Evan Tanner and Paul Buentello.

I WISH wrestling was big here. It was the only sport I wanted to do, but there was no one to train with. So I got into karate, which led to jiu-jitsu.

 

[theRevanchist]

Wrestling is hard, no one wants to pay to do that shit

Wrestling is hard sure but there are plenty of sports that are difficult. So is boxing, BJJ, Judo, Hockey, Basketball , American Football and Soccer. I don't think that is what is preventing the formation of adult wrestling gyms. It comes down to culture. In the Caucasian Mountains which includes provinces part of the Russia and independent countries like Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Georgia their is a different mentality. In America all the attention is placed on ball sports like football, basketball, and baseball. The emphasis is on spectatorship and entertainment. In the Caucus Mountain regions Scocer is the only major ball sports with a spectator mentality. Outside of that Wrestling, Sambo, Kickboxing, Judo, and Boxing taking presidence. Wrestling takes the lion share everyone wrestlers or has wrestled their entire childhood. People age 5-40 years old compete in the sport. In Wrestling many of the people that watch also compete.

 

[theRevanchist]

If you go to Germany, Scandinavia, Belgium, and Neatherland the Caucus Mountain Diaspora people have their own adult wrestling gyms with high level competitors. Their also have men who are age 40s and 50s although they go at a much slower place and adjust the difficulty. In the Caucus regions wrestling and grappling is a tradition not a recreational hobby or some thing you do for fun. No there it is quite sacred.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Wrestling is hard sure but there are plenty of sports that are difficult. So is boxing, BJJ, Judo, Hockey, Basketball , American Football and Soccer. I don't think that is what is preventing the formation of adult wrestling gyms. It comes down to culture. In the Caucasian Mountains which includes provinces part of the Russia and independent countries like Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Georgia their is a different mentality. In America all the attention is placed on ball sports like football, basketball, and baseball. The emphasis is on spectatorship and entertainment. In the Caucus Mountain regions Scocer is the only major ball sports with a spectator mentality. Outside of that Wrestling, Sambo, Kickboxing, Judo, and Boxing taking presidence. Wrestling takes the lion share everyone wrestlers or has wrestled their entire childhood. People age 5-40 years old compete in the sport. In Wrestling many of the people that watch also compete.

For sure culture plays a role, but BJJ isn’t hard. How many sports can you literally lay down in the beginning and still win consistently? It’s the only thing on your list most adults spend their money on to learn for themselves consistently as a beginner. Haha. There are some people that will put the time and money in on wrestling and boxing as adults for sure, but they’re usually people that want to get paid for their skills in the long run

 

[theRevanchist]

I believe in Dagestan the people learn Wrestling as Children depending on the area people wrestling in either clubs or teams affiliated with their school it depends. University sports isn't big so Adult wrestling up to their early 40s in private clubs. University have rec leagues but you'd better at that point better off wrestling at a club. So Adult Wrestling Clubs are very popular.
Also Scandinavia, Germany, and in Eastern Europe where Caucasus Mountain Ethnicities have a diaspora pockets there are Adult Wrestling Clubs. There are also Adult Wrestling Clubs aside from that that were there for quite some time. The thing is in America there is an obesession with American Football, Basketball, and Baseball. The advent of University Sports fill a niche and discourages the advent of private clubs. Also Wrestling in America is not extremely popular. Sure we have a D1 & Elites Olympians but those are elite circles.

 

[Fluffernutter]

Jiu-jitsu and MMA are hard at tough gyms. But I guess those of us that have done that also probably have had some wrestling classes too.

I feel that people with a BJJ base usually are really interested in learning more wrestling. My gym had a wrestling class with a damn good (all American from Duke) wrestler. It was awesome. Made everyone better.

I don't know about Mississippi, but in Austin a lot of BJJ and MMA gyms have good wrestlers teaching classes, even though it's not a huge sport in Texas.

Check this out. UT doesn't even have a real fucking wrestling team! They have a CLUB. It's absurd!

- Rise in TRCs (Regional Training Center) have opened up the doors for more wrestling opportunities outside of schools and an increase in former wtestlers coaching.

- a big increase in private wrestling clubs have open the doors to lots of age levels. And again, coaching opportunities.

- also, I could be wrong, but it seems like colleges are having more coaches attached to wrestling programs. It's no.longer a head coach and two assistants.

 

[Einheri]

Kids think it's "gay" because of the singlets. I almost did wrestling in high school but decided not to because of singlets, cutting weight, and cauliflower ear. *sigh*

Singlets need to go. They expose too much of the male anatomy, and children develop at different rates. Not to mention some males are growers and others are showers. Board shorts are the way to go forward.

I was big into swimming as a child, and recently took it back up in my 30s, but my school mandated Speedos. I am 17cm hard, but can look like an acorn when it's cold or my underpants are tight. I didn't continue swimming seriously because I didn't want to wear revealing attire in public view and open myself up to ridicule. I bet this is a major factor in low uptake for wrestling.