Why are wrestlers transitioning superior than Jiujitsu practioners at control on the ground?

But Judokas explosive and extensive stand-up should translate to groundgame excellence when crosstraining
 
Kforcer said:
You've coached wrestlers, I've coached wrestlers. We've both rolled with wrestlers and I'm sure we've both competed against wrestlers. Obviously, outside of grappling competitions where I ran into plenty of wrestlers, I also competed against wrestlers all the time when I was wrestling. Often I was coaching wrestlers in the context of a grappling class, but I've also coached wrestling as well, for whatever it is worth. Point is, we both have experiences we can refer to. And apparently you're experiences and your analysis of them leads you to your conclusions but I think you are completely and totally wrong. Absolutely wrong.

I'm not going to bother repeating myself, because I've basically said what I need to on the subject.
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I said I wasn't going to say anymore, but I will add something else.

Some of the toughest people to come out of wrestling are the people who don't make it, the people who never develop into top level or even varsity-level wrestlers but continue to grind hard every practice and bring everything they have to the matches they compete in. There was a particular guy I can think of that wrestled in high school the same time as me, at the same weight our junior and senior years: Andy Barker. He was never the starter at his weight class, but he gave it his all and he would even cut weight for JV matches.

In a lot of ways, the Andy Barker's of wrestling are the toughest ones and the ones that arguably get the most out of it. I think every area has a few of these guys and I'm sure most former wrestlers know what I'm talking about.
 
User89 said:
Is it the superior athlete syndrome? Wrestlers who transition to BJJ tend to be a handfull after a very short time and better at controlling limbs.

Given that they hail from very trivial rule-sets on the ground compared to BJJ, why do they have still have an edge in it when it comes to control (especially in a mount)?
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wrestling is hard bjj is like a cake walk
 
Judochopatemi said:
There are more broken limbs in BJJ
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I don't think that's necessarily true. Wrestling has a ton of injuries. There's no tapping in wrestling. Wrestlers get injured and continue with the match all the time. Like Kevin Randleman resetting his broken jaw, for example. BJJ has a much more polite culture, where you're supposed to be relatively safe and protective of your training partners and even, to an extent, your opponent. Not really the case in wrestling.
 
Kforcer said:
I don't think that's necessarily true. Wrestling has a ton of injuries. There's no tapping in wrestling. Wrestlers get injured and continue with the match all the time. Like Kevin Randleman resetting his broken jaw, for example. BJJ has a much more polite culture, where you're supposed to be relatively safe and protective of your training partners and even, to an extent, your opponent. Not really the case in wrestling.
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Wrestlers are very tough and do take hits like head butts, which is why they have a very easy time transitioning to striking compared to BJJ experts. But that doesn't mean there aren't nasty injuries in BJJ, they are simply of a different nature.
 
Judochopatemi said:
Wrestlers are very tough and do take hits like head butts, which is why they have a very easy time transitioning to striking compared to BJJ experts. But that doesn't mean there aren't nasty injuries in BJJ, they are simply of a different nature.
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I'm not denying that there are injuries in BJJ. I've injured opponents in submission-grappling a few times, or at least heard a crunch or a yelp. And I've been injured myself. But the frequency is greater in wrestling and the culture is different in regards to injuries.
 
yetanother said:
Folk style has complex ground work.
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The spiral (navy) ride is folkstyle best technique for MMA ground control for a host of reasons but Freestyle Wrestling will always have a more complex standing game. Brazilian jiu-jitsu is nothing more than Judo groundwork but it's new Giless applications are definitely something to be reckoned with. The main reason that folk style wrestlers are so dominant in American mixed martial arts is the fact that it's America's last publicly-funded combat sport through the school system. If America's working class youth had virtually free access to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sambo, Judo, freestyle, Greco, muay thai, boxing, shooto and catch in addition to folkstyle wrestling it's unlikely folk would stand out in any particular way. Folkstyle wrestlers are tough Public School System athletes while American Brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioners are mostly middle or upper-middle class well-off Lads with nice cars nice homes and nice families because it cost a pretty penny to get trained in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Meanwhile in Russia and Brazil BJJ is treated more like a public sport so a lot more people have access to it. America has a for-profit mentality about martial arts. In most of America's Parks if you were seeing engaging in MMA they would call the police and kick you out of your publicly-funded sports facilities.
 
KOMRADE said:
The spiral (navy) ride is folkstyle best technique for MMA ground control for a host of reasons but Freestyle Wrestling will always have a more complex standing game. Brazilian jiu-jitsu is nothing more than Judo groundwork but it's new Giless applications are definitely something to be reckoned with. The main reason that folk style wrestlers are so dominant in American mixed martial arts is the fact that it's America's last publicly-funded combat sport through the school system. If America's working class youth had virtually free access to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu sambo, Judo, freestyle, Greco, muay thai, boxing, shooto and catch in addition to folkstyle wrestling it's unlikely folk would stand out in any particular way. Folkstyle wrestlers are tough Public School System athletes while American Brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioners are mostly middle or upper-middle class well-off Lads with nice cars nice homes and nice families because it cost a pretty penny to get trained in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Meanwhile in Russia and Brazil BJJ is treated more like a public sport so a lot more people have access to it. America has a for-profit mentality about martial arts. In most of America's Parks if you were seeing engaging in MMA they would call the police and kick you out of your publicly-funded sports facilities.
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Judo on the ground? BJJ invented guard play. Get a Judoka on his back and he's toast.
 
User89 is either a spacetime-esk troll or a prime example of the Dunnimg-Kruger effect in practice.

He also has done an outstanding job of continuing the bjj white/blue belt tradition of asking a question about wrestling (or judo).. usually some sort of way to whine about “athleticism” and to help sooth his ego over 1 of 3 or4 training situations.

When the question is answered.. usually by people with far more experience in at least bjj and often wrestling and judo. He continues the tradition of replying with “ackchually guys, I’ve read the Wikipedia article and watched a couple of matches, so I know all about wrestling the way you do”

How long has he been training? Because he almost fits to a T that white/blue belt who’s only a “hobbyist” if they lose. Who gets angry that the new wrestler can hold his own so quickly... and.. “sniffle, even with my super duper martial art, sniffle, the mean jock with bad bad impur athleticism.. sniffle sniffle is showing me that even with the super duper cooolll tech... size, Strength and hustling still matter, sniffle sniffle” :(
 
You lost if you pinned someone to his back in Judo. Does that sound like an art with a science of using the guard? :rolleyes:
 
Because they aren’t starting from square one their sport is literally just control. Like a boxer being better at punching....

BJJ is subs, sweeps, and control.
 
vcmmafan said:
Because they aren’t starting from square one their sport is literally just control. Like a boxer being better at punching....

BJJ is subs, sweeps, and control.
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How do gym buffs compare as beginners to wrestlers?
 
Judochopatemi said:
You lost if you pinned someone to his back in Judo. Does that sound like an art with a science of using the guard? :rolleyes:
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You can win with a hold down IF they pass the guard. Obviously, guard retention is therefore paramount for people who don't want to lose by a hold down. The guard is a huge part of judo newaza. And there was plenty of it in Japanese jujutsu as well.
 
Judochopatemi said:
Even in Kimuras time they had dog shit guard compared to the evolution of BJJ
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Not really. And Kimura was a legend in Kosen judo, which had unlimited time on the ground. BJJ did not invent guard work, that is just not true. Watch some footage of Kosen judo or footage of Mifune, among others. One of the ways judoka and jujutsu practitioners gave wrestlers trouble in the days of catch-wrestling versus judo and jujutsu was by utilizing the guard to submit them off their backs.
 
Kforcer said:
You can win with a hold down IF they pass the guard. Obviously, guard retention is therefore paramount for people who don't want to lose by a hold down. The guard is a huge part of judo newaza. And there was plenty of it in Japanese jujutsu as well.
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So BJJ has furthered it since pins are irrelevant. Kosen Judo came much later.
 
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