Why are wrestlers transitioning superior than Jiujitsu practioners at control on the ground?

Who are these "average wrestlers" that paralyze BJJ guys?

I can think of plenty of high-level wrestlers who, having failed to learn the fundamentals of grappling were submitted on the ground by BJJ'ists who were far less accomplished. I witnessed a wrestler who was a state champion and was recruited in college by Oklahoma and Oklahoma State among others armbarred by a Brazilian jiu jitsu guy who had minimal athleticism and no notable accomplishments but simply had basic fundamentals which the wrestler totally lacked. He was slammed on this back, landed in guard, shifted his hips and secured an armbar. In fact, I can also recall a one-legged man, Ronnie Mann (rest in peace), submitting a young wrestler, I believe with an armbar as well. High-level wrestlers that don't know to not give away their arms or protect their necks get subbed by grapplers, BJJ'st and otherwise, all the time. Its hardly a rare occurrence.

But my guess is that none of the people you are referring to as average wrestlers were in fact that, if you are referring to people you have seen in Bellator or the UFC. Almost none of those guys were "average" wrestlers. Almost all of them were highly accomplished and only "average" relative perhaps the accomplishments of their fellow competitors.

Wow. You mean someone who trained in a sport that doesn't allow chokes and arm bars would be initially very susceptible to them? How does that disprove the value of wrestling?

When I hear stuff like this, it really starts making me believe BJJ is stocked up hipsters and dorks who feel all proud and tough about being able to submit someone with a grappling style that is hardly taught in the U.S. and often there is no access to.
 
Wow. You mean someone who trained in a sport that doesn't allow chokes and arm bars would be initially very susceptible to them? How does that disprove the value of wrestling?

When I hear stuff like this, it really starts making me believe BJJ is stocked up hipsters and dorks who feel all proud and tough about being able to submit someone with a grappling style that is hardly taught in the U.S. and often there is no access to.
You're being totally ridiculous, reading something into my post that isn't there at all. You really think I'm trying to disprove the value of wrestling?

I've pretty much never trained in BJJ, I grew up wrestling, I love wrestling, I consider my style catch-wrestling, the only time I have worn a gi is when I did judo briefly. I have studied and incorporated BJJ players and tried to incorporate their techniques into my game of course but I don't consider myself a BJJ'ist at all.

I was responding to the assertions made by the OP, which overstated the dominance of wrestlers over BJJ'ists, claiming that "average wrestlers paralyze" BJJ practitioners. The fact that you think I was trying to disparage wrestling is insane. There's such a thing as trying to give a balanced assessment. There are things BJJ'ists have to adjust to when dealing with wrestlers, if they aren't familiar with them and there are things wrestlers have to learn and adjust to. Sometimes, there are wrestlers and BJJ'ists that seem to almost intuitively make those adjustments, sometimes not as much.
 
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You're being totally ridiculous, reading something into my post that isn't there at all. You really think I'm trying to disprove the value of wrestling?

I've pretty much never trained in BJJ, I grew up wrestling, I love wrestling, I consider my style catch-wrestling, the only time I have worn a gi is when I did judo briefly. I have studied and incorporated BJJ players and tried to incorporate their techniques into my game of course but I don't consider myself a BJJ'ist at all.

I was responding to the assertions made by the OP, which overstated the dominance of wrestlers over BJJ'ists, claiming that "average wrestlers paralyze" BJJ practitioners. The fact that you think I was trying to disparage wrestling is insane. There's such a thing as trying to give a balanced assessment. There are things BJJ'ists have to adjust to when dealing with wrestlers, if they aren't familiar with them and there are things wrestlers have to learn and adjust to. Sometimes, there are wrestlers and BJJ'ists that seem to almost intuitively make those adjustments, sometimes not as much.

No, you are comparing your experience of what you saw with new guys as some assessment of BJJ. You take a wrestler and show him the very basics and how to avoid being submitted and he is a handful. That happens in UFC all the time. The reverse doesn't work. You don't see BJJ guys that instantly become a handful after being shown a few wrestling moves.
 
No, you are comparing your experience of what you saw with new guys as some assessment of BJJ. You take a wrestler and show him the very basics and how to avoid being submitted and he is a handful. That happens in UFC all the time. The reverse doesn't work. You don't see BJJ guys that instantly become a handful after being shown a few wrestling moves.
Actually, yes. You were absolutely reading into my post an indictment of wrestling which was not there if you are going to be at all reasonable. You took my response, didn't consider what I was responding to or what I'd posted previously and then exaggerated it into me somehow stating that BJJ was superior to wrestling. Which is totally absurd.
 
No, you are comparing your experience of what you saw with new guys as some assessment of BJJ.
No, I was actually simply saying...what I was saying. That wrestlers that don't learn the fundamentals of grappling have had issues dealing with it. That's what I was saying. But you want to put words into my mouth for whatever reason.
 
No, you are comparing your experience of what you saw with new guys as some assessment of BJJ. You take a wrestler and show him the very basics and how to avoid being submitted and he is a handful. That happens in UFC all the time. The reverse doesn't work. You don't see BJJ guys that instantly become a handful after being shown a few wrestling moves.
That's with elite wrestlers like elite judokas.

Your run of the mill "oh i wrestled in high school/wrestled walk on minor insignificant college progam" guys dont pertainin to this situation.
 
That's with elite wrestlers like elite judokas.

Your run of the mill "oh i wrestled in high school/wrestled walk on minor insignificant college progam" guys dont pertainin to this situation.
You definitely have plenty of high school wrestlers or junior college wrestlers or guys with average or below average college careers who go on to do very well MMA.

But almost none of those guys are actually "average."

Almost nobody who wrestles in college at any level is "average." High school wrestling is incredibly demanding and to be a champion on any level is a difficult feat. College wrestling, whether it is junior college or Division 1, is another level, where you are almost exclusively competing against skilled, dedicated athletes. And those who go onto collegiate wrestling who weren't from the upper echelon of high school are basically without exception forged into a different level of wrestler than they were.

People who weren't involved in wrestling are often unfamiliar with just how demanding it is or how difficult it is to reach its upper levels. All-State wrestlers like Quinton Jackson, who if I recall, didn't place, should not in any way be expected to be pushovers on the mat. You're talking guys who trained at least 2 hours a day, five days a week on-season and almost always more than that, learning to takedown and dominate opponents. And then you're talking guys who not only had the toughness to endure that training but also to establish themselves as better than most of those other tough people. MMA and grappling is rife with wrestlers from high school or junior college backgrounds who went onto success and whose wrestling has, in many cases, given them very formidable ground-control.
 
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Wrestlers in general tend to be more disciplined & harder working than most other martial artists. It makes sense this would translate into success in jiujitsu as well.
 
You definitely have plenty of high school wrestlers or junior college wrestlers or guys with average or below average college careers who go on to do very well MMA.

But almost none of those guys are actually "average."

Almost nobody who wrestles in college at any level is "average." High school wrestling is incredibly demanding and to be a champion on any level is a difficult feat. College wrestling, whether it is junior college or Division 1, is another level, where you are almost exclusively competing against skilled, dedicated athletes. And those who go onto collegiate wrestling who weren't from the upper echelon of high school are basically without exception forged into a different level of wrestler than they were.

People who weren't involved in wrestling are often unfamiliar with just how demanding it is or how difficult it is to reach its upper levels. All-State wrestlers like Quinton Jackson, who if I recall, didn't place, should not in any way be expected to be pushovers on the mat. You're talking guys who trained at least 2 hours a day, five days a week on-season and almost always more than that, learning to takedown and dominate opponents. And then you're talking guys who not only had the toughness to endure that training but also to establish themselves as better than most of those other tough people. MMA and grappling is rife with wrestlers from high school or junior college backgrounds who went onto success and whose wrestling has, in many cases, given them very formidable ground-control.
I have trained with plenty of former highschool wrestlers/wrestlers in insignificant college programs. They are not elite unless they went to a powerhouse in wrestling (high school) heck some schools have trouble having a full team.
 
No, you are comparing your experience of what you saw with new guys as some assessment of BJJ. You take a wrestler and show him the very basics and how to avoid being submitted and he is a handful. That happens in UFC all the time. The reverse doesn't work. You don't see BJJ guys that instantly become a handful after being shown a few wrestling moves.
I've seen some BJJ kids get on a highschool wrestling mat and turn into a handful in less than a season. You don't really any opportunities for BJJ guys to focus on wrestling the way former wrestlers can focus on BJJ.
 
I have trained with plenty of former highschool wrestlers/wrestlers in insignificant college programs. They are not elite unless they went to a powerhouse in wrestling (high school) heck some schools have trouble having a full team.
I can't speak to your experience but your assessment is way, way off. Especially if you are going to make a generalization based on that. If you wrestle in college, you are a beast, regardless of the program. High school wrestling hardens you, college wrestling hardens you even more. Not to mention, you have absolute beasts of wrestlers in college programs. Jason Holmes, the '96 senior nationals champion at 152, went to Muskegon junior college. That sort of thing happens with wrestling, especially because it isn't a revenue sport.

Also, the list of good but not great high school wrestlers who have gone onto success in MMA or BJJ or judo or what have you is very, very long. Think of Jon Jones, Demetrius Johnson, Quinton Jackson, etc.

I will say, people that become removed from their wrestling experience can certainly be entirely different animals and it can depend on when the given individual crosses over or whatever. But there are no cupcakes in collegiate wrestling, junior college or otherwise. Generally, you've got to be tough to a certain degree to get from junior varsity to varsity in high school wrestling. Tougher yet to make it to the upper-levels of that. Even tougher still to compete beyond that level.

Some of the guys in this thread are going overboard about the ability of wrestlers to absolutely control and dominate BJJ guys. That is silly. But you're way, way, way off if you think that its only the guys at elite college wrestling programs that are going through hell in practice and able to give hell on the mat.
 
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I've seen some BJJ kids get on a highschool wrestling mat and turn into a handful in less than a season.
You've seen that with judoka as well, of course. And you have had instances of BJJ competitors who have wrestled in college without official high school wrestling experience, although of course, they were certainly training wrestling during their BJJ and grappling training to an extent. What was the name of the fairly well-known grappling instructor that wrestled at Iowa State? Name escapes me. Used to be more well known.
 
You're being totally ridiculous, reading something into my post that isn't there at all. You really think I'm trying to disprove the value of wrestling?

I've pretty much never trained in BJJ, I grew up wrestling, I love wrestling, I consider my style catch-wrestling, the only time I have worn a gi is when I did judo briefly. I have studied and incorporated BJJ players and tried to incorporate their techniques into my game of course but I don't consider myself a BJJ'ist at all.

I was responding to the assertions made by the OP, which overstated the dominance of wrestlers over BJJ'ists, claiming that "average wrestlers paralyze" BJJ practitioners. The fact that you think I was trying to disparage wrestling is insane. There's such a thing as trying to give a balanced assessment. There are things BJJ'ists have to adjust to when dealing with wrestlers, if they aren't familiar with them and there are things wrestlers have to learn and adjust to. Sometimes, there are wrestlers and BJJ'ists that seem to almost intuitively make those adjustments, sometimes not as much.

The average higher belt adult bjj practitioner who also crosstrained in wrestling or judo as a youth PARALYZES adult bjj practitioners with no standup grappling or crosstraining experience. STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES!

No but for real it's hilarious getting double legged by the dudes who are so ignorant to subs they just give you a guillotine to lock up mid air and land in.

But yeah of course it's rough to go up against someone with more mat hours than you in a more complete game than you're ever trained.


This is basic stuff (total mat hours, standing clinch and ground training, etc), I feel bad for you brother that other's don't get it.
 
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I can't speak to your experience but your assessment is way, way off. Especially if you are going to make a generalization based on that. If you wrestle in college, you are a beast, regardless of the program. High school wrestling hardens you, college wrestling hardens you even more. Not to mention, you have absolute beasts of wrestlers in college programs. Jason Holmes, the '96 senior nationals champion at 152, went to Muskegon junior college. That sort of thing happens with wrestling, especially because it isn't a revenue sport.

Also, the list of good but not great high school wrestlers who have gone onto success in MMA or BJJ or judo or what have you is very, very long. Think of Jon Jones, Demetrius Johnson, Quinton Jackson, etc.

I will say, people that become removed from their wrestling experience can certainly be entirely different animals and it can depend on when the given individual crosses over or whatever. But there are no cupcakes in collegiate wrestling, junior college or otherwise. Generally, you've got to be tough to a certain degree to get from junior varsity to varsity in high school wrestling. Tougher yet to make it to the upper-levels of that. Even tougher still to compete beyond that level.

Some of the guys in this thread are going overboard about the ability of wrestlers to absolutely control and dominate BJJ guys. That is silly. But you're way, way, way off if you think that its only the guys at elite college wrestling programs that are going through hell in practice and able to give hell on the mat.

Your run of the mill high school wrestler Is nothing special. Some non decorated college wrestlers went to do well in next mortal words not because of their high school wrestling but because they were talented. GSP became a great wrestler and M AMA fighter because he was talented. Some former wrestlers online think high school wrestling is some kind of magic formula that turns you into Spartacus. It simply is not. I have trained would former high school wrestlers and former collegiate wrestlers, I've also coached kids who were wrestling in high school. They do better than children without any grappling background However on the average nothing extraordinary. Just being on the wrestling team does not make you more talented.
 
Your run of the mill high school wrestler Is nothing special. Some non decorated college wrestlers went to do well in next mortal words not because of their high school wrestling but because they were talented. GSP became a great wrestler and M AMA fighter because he was talented. Some former wrestlers online think high school wrestling is some kind of magic formula that turns you into Spartacus. It simply is not. I have trained would former high school wrestlers and former collegiate wrestlers, I've also coached kids who were wrestling in high school. They do better than children without any grappling background However on the average nothing extraordinary. Just being on the wrestling team does not make you more talented.

You've coached wrestlers, I've coached wrestlers. We've both rolled with wrestlers and I'm sure we've both competed against wrestlers. Obviously, outside of grappling competitions where I ran into plenty of wrestlers, I also competed against wrestlers all the time when I was wrestling. Often I was coaching wrestlers in the context of a grappling class, but I've also coached wrestling as well, for whatever it is worth. Point is, we both have experiences we can refer to. And apparently you're experiences and your analysis of them leads you to your conclusions but I think you are completely and totally wrong. Absolutely wrong.

I'm not going to bother repeating myself, because I've basically said what I need to on the subject.
 
Wrestlers in general tend to be more disciplined & harder working than most other martial artists.

That's definitely true. I think a lot of people who have never endured a wrestling practice let alone a wrestling season have a hard time really understanding that.

Which is not to say that BJJ guys are soft and wrestlers are hard. But wrestling is definitely a tough sport and I think it is tougher than many outsiders realize.
 
Imagine your a d1 wrestler coming into bjj... where are you starting? I mean, if were comparing mat time the only one in the building who can stand up to u are the black belts. That's not where you start though, your fighting fcking blues. Wrestlers seem like a handful because they are usually WAY ahead of the curve. In reality, real BJJ comp , starts at black belt. No one cares about what u did at the colored belts. Now let's go check results for black belt comps, how many wrestlers do you see dominating? If were talking straight up MMA, if I'm competing under athletic commission standards I'm going with wrestling. They dont understand ground work so it's simply," Who's on top?" Under japanese rules, I'm going with bjj ,sub attempts are HUGE over there, and being on your back isn't a big deal.




Also guys , always remember, this is a martial art, not a sport. The avg practitioner isn't competing, and will get beat the fck down by anyone who's gone through a college program.
 
I think alot of it comes down to the difference in Athleticism. Most wrestlers who go into MMA are super athletic freaks who are taught absolute aggression and smash. They are also used to training in the most efficient manner, which includes alot of strength and conditioning. Not so in Jiu-Jitsu for the most part.
Also, 2 words.
Body. Awareness. Wrestlers are tops at knowing where their body is in space, while simultaneously accounting for where their opponent's body is.
 
Reading the thread it struck me, why aren't Judokas who crosstrain BJJ equally nightmarish as wrestlers? They are wrestlers too, albeit jacket wrestlers.

Everybody says that wrestlers who crosstrain BJJ are quickly a handfull, but rarely do you hear the same said about Judokas...

Why is that?
 
Well for Americans who wrestled and transitioned to bjj, luckily we have wrestling in our school system, folkstyle. Both men have to constantly work, bottom man to escape or reverse, top man to control, turn, and pin. In other styles, freestyle, bottom man doesn’t have to escape or reverse, just ride it out.

Judo is the same no? You have a few seconds to work otherwise a standup. Not true in folkstyle.
 
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