Why are there so many more deaths in Boxing

[WadCheber]

The UFC forum used to be called the heavies. People still refer to it by that name.

Ah. Yar, I haven't posted there, and I doubt I will. MMA/UFC isn't my thing.

 

[nac386]

Ah. Yar, I haven't poster there, and I doubt I will. MMA/UFC isn't my thing.

People thought I was an old poster on a new account too when I joined, a few people asked me who I "used to be" and I couldn't figure out why people thought it was so difficult to just create an account for the first time an start posting. But then I realized a lot of people really do get banned and pop up with new names repeatedly, some guys have had like 3 or 4 names (strangeking, madking, madmax, etc). Sometimes people will refer to certain posters by their previous names. You'll pick up on lots of inside jokes and forum-specific lingo over time.

 

[WadCheber]

People thought I was an old poster on a new account too when I joined, a few people asked me who I "used to be" and I couldn't figure out why people thought it was so difficult to just create an account for the first time an start posting. But then I realized a lot of people really do get banned and pop up with new names repeatedly, some guys have had like 3 or 4 names (strangeking, madking, madmax, etc). Sometimes people will refer to certain posters by their previous names. You'll pick up on lots of inside jokes and forum-specific lingo over time.

Glad to know I'm not the only one. For what it's worth, my user name here isn't a clever ruse to hide my identity or anything - it's a spoonerism of my real name. I've set up a proper profile now, and it links to my accounts on some other sites. Maybe that will help convince people I'm on the up and up.

I may be a jackass, I certainly don't know much about boxing (and I know nothing about MMA), but I'm definitely not a liar or a troll. My intentions here are good.

I read the FAQ in the support forum, but is there another thread or forum with info for new users?

 

[Sunfish]

Glad to know I'm not the only one. For what it's worth, my user name here isn't a clever ruse to hide my identity or anything - it's a spoonerism of my real name. I've set up a proper profile now, and it links to my accounts on some other sites. Maybe that will help convince people I'm on the up and up.

I may be a jackass, I certainly don't know much about boxing (and I know nothing about MMA), but I'm definitely not a liar or a troll. My intentions here are good.

I read the FAQ in the support forum, but is there another thread or forum with info for new users?

Not really. Just keep posting, it's usually obvious who people have respawned as by their posting style.

When the subforum has been trolled a lot and someone starts making posts about boxing deaths people will get suspicious. It isn't anything personal, but I'll say it again, old cat is a good guy despite his love for Andre ward.

 

[WadCheber]

It isn't anything personal, but I'll say it again, old cat is a good guy despite his love for Andre ward.

I'd like to start over with him. I'm here to talk about boxing, but I'd rather make friends than enemies in the process. Everyone is entitled to be suspicious of me as an unknown quantity, but I would ask that I be judged on the basis of the quality of my posts and my actions here.

 

[Old Cat]

Fair enough.

The whole multi-post boxing death thing just had me looking at you sideways. We are good...


Welcome....

 

[WadCheber]

Fair enough.

The whole multi-post boxing death thing just had me looking at you sideways. We are good...


Welcome....

Thanks! Now I feel weird posting this, but I did a lot of leg work to do it, so I have to...

 

[sportkillergreg]

 

[WadCheber]

I did some research, and I've come up with some hard numbers:


Recorded MMA deaths in regulated fights:

1. Sam Vasquez 30 Nov. 2007
2. Michael Kirkham 28 Jun. 2010
4. Tyrone Mims 11 Aug. 2012
5. Booto Guylain 5 Mar. 2014


Pro boxing deaths in regulated fights during that same period:

1. Yo-sam Choi 25 Dec. 2007
2. Alex Aroy 4 Feb. 2008
3. Rafael Ortiz 8 Mar. 2008
4. Hi Cho (Mikeo Takeuchi) 3 May 2008
5. Samora Msophi 27 Jun. 2008
6. Luis "Tino" Lugo Quintero 27 Jun. 2008
7. Dachirri "Bashiru" Thompson 27 Jul. 2008
8. Daniel Aguillon 15 Oct. 2008
9. Benjamin "El Michoachano" Flores 30 Apr. 2009
10. Marco Nazareth 18 Jul. 2009
11. Francisco "Pancho" Moncivais 24 Jul. 2009
12. Somboon Wiengchai 12 Oct. 2009
13. Francisco "Paco" Rodriguez 20 Nov. 2009
14. Hirokazu Yamaki 19 Feb. 2010
15. Ki suk Bae 17 Jul. 2010
16. Anele Makhwelo 7 Oct. 2011
17. Roman Simakov 5 Dec. 2011
18. Karlo Maquinto 28 Jan. 2012
19. Muhammad Afrizal 30 Mar. 2012
20. Jose Angel "Vitaminas" Jimenez 31 Mar. 2012
21. Willman Rodriguez Gomez 4 May 2012
22. Ermelito "Jog" Alim Jr. 19 Jun. 2012
23. Okson Edison Ingamiua (Okson Palue) 21 Nov. 2012
24. Michael Norgrove 6 Apr. 2013
25. Francisco Javier "Frankie" Leal 19 Oct. 2013
26. Tesshin Okada 20 Dec. 2013
27. Oscar "Fantasma" Gonzalez 1 Feb. 2014

Methodology:

MMA:

I started with the "sanctioned bouts" section of wiki article on fatalities in MMA, and did some googling to try to find records of other deaths in pro MMA bouts, which turned up nothing useful. I used the dates of the first and last deaths listed on the wiki page to limit my the data set - that is to say, I ignored all deaths before 30 Nov. 2007 and after 5 Mar. 2014. I also ignored all deaths that weren't caused by events that took place in the ring, and I ignored all deaths that resulted from unsanctioned/unregulated events.

Boxing:

I started with the raw data from the Manuel Velazquez Boxing Fatality Collection, and ignored all deaths due to sparring, practice, amateur bouts, and preexisting medical conditions. There were several deaths each related to amateur bouts and sparring, one related to training, and one related to a preexisting medical condition (a man who died shortly after a fight, but whose cause of death was kidney failure - from overuse of dietary supplements - and liver damage - from alcoholism). The Velazquez collection data didn't mention whether the bouts in question were regulated or sanctioned, so I had to assume that they were. However, I can't vouch for that, so my work might include some unsanctioned/unregulated fights.


Analysis:

There are probably at least 30,000 pro boxers in the world, vs. maybe 5,000 pro MMA fighters. That means that we should expect about 6 times more deaths in boxing, because 6 times more people box.

That is almost exactly what we see here. Four deaths in sanctioned MMA bouts, and twenty seven deaths in pro boxing matches. That's a ratio of 6.75:1. Since we expected 6:1 based on the differences in the number of people who participate in either sport, we only have to explain why it is 6.75:1 instead of 6:1.

I think the extra 0.75 deaths in boxing per death in MMA is probably just a problem with the resources available. The Manuel Velazquez Collection is a meticulously compiled, thorough, and rigorously updated resource so reliable that it is frequently used as the sole source of data for academic and medical journal articles about boxing mortalities. Thus, the data for boxing deaths is almost certainly complete, and includes every death that actually occured.

There is no comparable resource for deaths in MMA - I relied on Wikipedia and google. Thus, the data for MMA deaths may very well be incomplete.

Whether or not this is the case, the fact is that a difference this small, in a sample size this small, is probably not statistically significant.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: I realize that my methodology lacks academic rigor, but this is just the best way I could think of to work around the issue of the disparity between the long history of boxing and the novelty of MMA. In other words, I didn't know how else to account for the following facts:

1. MMA didn't exist 30 years ago, whereas boxing has existed for several millennia.

2. Most MMA wasn't regulated at all until relatively recently, whereas boxing has been regulated since the 1860's.

3. Even now, there aren't many fighters in MMA (compared to boxing), and 30 years ago, there were absolutely none, whereas there are probably 30,000 active pro boxers now, and there were probably almost that many 30 years ago.

So I worked around those problems by using the deaths in regulated MMA bouts to set the criteria. I could have extended the time frame to the present day, but the Manuel Velazquez data I have only runs up to 2015, and the data for 2015 is incomplete. Also, I'm lazy, and I'm not getting paid for this, because it's just a thread in a forum, so I decided to do it this way because it was the easiest method that could also be considered honest and fair.

 

[Sunfish]

What is the time frame you are analysing? There was a death this year in Ireland in mma for example.

 

[WadCheber]

What is the time frame you are analysing? There was a death this year in Ireland in mma for example.

30 Nov. 2007 to 5 Mar. 2014. And if you mean the fight in Dublin, everything I could find said that the event was unregulated, so it wouldn't fit my criteria for two reasons: it happened too late, and it wasn't regulated.

 

[Sunfish]

30 Nov. 2007 to 5 Mar. 2014. And if you mean the fight in Dublin, everything I could find said that the event was unregulated, so it wouldn't fit my criteria for two reasons: it happened too late, and it wasn't regulated.

Yeah, I just read the statement by the Irish sports minister. It is currently an unregulated sport in Ireland.

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

People thought I was an old poster on a new account too when I joined, a few people asked me who I "used to be" and I couldn't figure out why people thought it was so difficult to just create an account for the first time an start posting. But then I realized a lot of people really do get banned and pop up with new names repeatedly, some guys have had like 3 or 4 names (strangeking, madking, madmax, etc). Sometimes people will refer to certain posters by their previous names. You'll pick up on lots of inside jokes and forum-specific lingo over time.

I got banned for asking where can I report a website for pedophilia, lol. I swear.

 

[Sunfish]

I got banned for asking where can I report a website for pedophilia, lol. I swear.

"8. Porn. Posting, quoting or outwardly soliciting/providing pornographic images or links. This means:
No rape threads/posts/images
No shit threads/posts/images
No beastiality threads/posts/images
No overtly pornographic threads/posts/images
No pedophile/incest threads/posts/images
No grossout threads/posts/images"

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

"8. Porn. Posting, quoting or outwardly soliciting/providing pornographic images or links. This means:
No rape threads/posts/images
No shit threads/posts/images
No beastiality threads/posts/images
No overtly pornographic threads/posts/images
No pedophile/incest threads/posts/images
No grossout threads/posts/images"

Not worth a ban, imo. On the same level of logic, any rape trial video of a boxer here should be ban worthy too. I was trying to do good.

 

[Sunfish]

Not worth a ban, imo. On the same level of logic, any rape trial video of a boxer here should be ban worthy too. I was trying to do good.

I was just saying that would be why, it's under the ban infractions in the forum rules.

 

[Old Cat]

Thanks! Now I feel weird posting this, but I did a lot of leg work to do it, so I have to...

Ha ha..

Yes you did do a lot of leg work. It's appreciated.

I went back a looked through your posts. It looks like I was wrong about you. No need to rehash the why I was suspicious. Suffice to say, trolls come in many forms, some more clever than others. I have a odd knack for seeing small detail. I tend to run with it, but i am not allways correct.

Also, I suspect partially your quick push back was because of the effort you expended into " the work". I get it. IMO, this forum has the highest quality group of boxing enthusiasts on the Internet, very eclectic but top notch. I think you will fit in quite well, your "Singing Sasquatch "I'm not sure about yet( nice touch btw, I laughed).

 

[WadCheber]

Ha ha..

Yes you did do a lot of leg work. It's appreciated.

I went back a looked through your posts. It looks like I was wrong about you. No need to rehash the why I was suspicious. Suffice to say, trolls come in many forms, some more clever than others. I have a odd knack for seeing small detail. I tend to run with it, but i am not allways correct.

Also, I suspect partially your quick push back was because of the effort you expended into " the work". I get it. IMO, this forum has the highest quality group of boxing enthusiasts on the Internet, very eclectic but top notch. I think you will fit in quite well, your "Singing Sasquatch "I'm not sure about yet( nice touch btw, I laughed).

Fair play. And yar, Sasquatches are notoriously unpredictable. I'm not sure I trust him either.

 

[WadCheber]

Ha ha..

Yes you did do a lot of leg work. It's appreciated.

I went back a looked through your posts. It looks like I was wrong about you. No need to rehash the why I was suspicious. Suffice to say, trolls come in many forms, some more clever than others. I have a odd knack for seeing small detail. I tend to run with it, but i am not allways correct.

Also, I suspect partially your quick push back was because of the effort you expended into " the work". I get it. IMO, this forum has the highest quality group of boxing enthusiasts on the Internet, very eclectic but top notch. I think you will fit in quite well, your "Singing Sasquatch "I'm not sure about yet( nice touch btw, I laughed).

By the way, I really appreciate how reasonable you are - it takes a good man to admit he was wrong. For my part, I'm sorry if I was too snarky in my response. Glad it's behind us.