Who's the greatest heavyweight boxer?

[Monte Moku]

I could point out severel things wrong with this. But let me pick one: Marciano.

How is Marciano with 6 title defenses more accomplished than a guy with 24 title defenses? Or more accomplished than Holyfield or Tyson?
It's not like Marciano's overall resume (aside from title defenses) is better either.

It's again this romanticization of the old days, where a guy gets favored just because he's from an older era, hence looked at as a greater "legend". It's absolute unrealistic nonsense, but certain people are too ignorant to smarten up and let it go.

Greatness is not always determined by resume. It is perfectly possible for a champion with 24 title defenses to get sparked by another Boxer of similar caliber.

 

[defjaam]

Greatness is not always determined by resume. It is perfectly possible for a champion with 24 title defenses to get sparked by another Boxer of similar caliber.

That's true.

But you deliver no arguments why Marciano is greater than Wladimir (or Holyfield, Tyson).
And as long as nobody delivers arguments, I stick to it: Nostalgic bullshit.

 

[Alcibiades007]

That's true.

But you deliver no arguments why Marciano is greater than Wladimir (or Holyfield, Tyson).
And as long as nobody delivers arguments, I stick to it: Nostalgic bullshit.

I ranked him 3rd in my list mostly because he's the only Heavyweight champ in history with a perfect record. Peeps usually underrate him cause of his style and the contenders he fought but it's not like he was a ducker. Wlad never fought an ATG. And I'd say realistically, Tyson never beat anybody very impressive either. His greatest win is against a natural LHW who won the title against an old man Holmes.

Marciano started his career in his mid 20s with no finesse and went to beat all the guys out there. His KO ratio is the highest ever of a HW champ and was only floored twice in his entire career. That's genuinely amazing!

 

[Monte Moku]

That's true.

But you deliver no arguments why Marciano is greater than Wladimir (or Holyfield, Tyson).
And as long as nobody delivers arguments, I stick to it: Nostalgic bullshit.

I don't believe Marciano was better than Wladimir, I was just explaining that the user who posted his tiers may have put Marciano above him because he thinks Marciano could beat Wlad, not because of resume, which was the criteria implicitly being used in your original reply. I don't care why he ranked Marciano higher, my reply was pushing the point of 'greatness is not determined by what is on paper' because I feel that mindset is found all too often in GOAT discussions.

 

[Hagler]

I could point out severel things wrong with this. But let me pick one: Marciano.

How is Marciano with 6 title defenses more accomplished than a guy with 24 title defenses? Or more accomplished than Holyfield or Tyson?
It's not like Marciano's overall resume (aside from title defenses) is better either.

It's again this romanticization of the old days, where a guy gets favored just because he's from an older era, hence looked at as a greater "legend". It's absolute unrealistic nonsense, but certain people are too ignorant to smarten up and let it go.

To each his own, pumpkin. Take back the name calling and cram it. Being undefeated and beating Walcott twice, Moore and Charles twice - plus a couple other good wins - is pretty solid, any way you look at it. Wlad is great, but he hardly beat any HOF contender and has 3 unavenged loses to B-level fighters from when he was far from over the hill. It's not all that complicated to understand how Marciano could be ranked higher. Tyson and Holyfield's records at HW are far from perfect and you know it. Now, there may be a case for Marciano's going down a notch and Wlad, Tyson or Evander's being above him, nothing wrong with that. Not being an asshole could help this case.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

On resume its Ali, in terms of who i'd favour to win the most if they all fought each other - Lennox.

i think there is a top tier, in which there are stylistic favorites. Lennox was awesome, but not a great chin, and he lived off his reach. Someone tall with big power and a great chin - Vitali or Big George - would be nothing but trouble for him.
i think Witali was going to win that fight if not for the cut. On the other side of it, Lennox was fat and unprepared.

 

[toogreen]

Ali that beat cleavland williams
looks unbeatable

Rocky’s the only undefeated HW champ he had the shortest reach and beat ezzard charles , walcot, moore, louis (the only shot one).

Larry Holmes was basically Ali 1.5.

Louis was the best finisher , the best boxer puncher and still has the most title defenses

Wladmir is the best pure boxer and would probably out point everyone on that list

 

[defjaam]

To each his own, pumpkin. Take back the name calling and cram it. Being undefeated and beating Walcott twice, Moore and Charles twice - plus a couple other good wins - is pretty solid, any way you look at it.

Not any way ... Walcott, Moore and Charles had their best days behind them when Marciano beat them, it's equivalent to Terry Norris having a win over Sugar Ray Leonard or Jeff Horn having a win over Manny Pacquiao.

Wlad is great, but he hardly beat any HOF contender and has 3 unavenged loses to B-level fighters from when he was far from over the hill.

Let's ignore that Wladimir avenged his loss against Brewster, and let's ignore the fact that Ross Purity and Corrie Sanders didn't do shit after beating Wladimir. They never climbed up the ranks to earn the right to box for the title ... why would the world champion chase them? It's not like there was a public demand for those rematches either.

He did came back stronger than ever after those losses, reigned for over 10 years and boxed everyone that was thrown at him, among them opponents like David Haye who in 2011 was probably much more dangerous than Ross Purity and Corrie Sanders LOL ... sorry to say it, but you're being beyond ignorant.

Let's also ignore the fact that the audience thought that La Starza beat Marciano in their first fight. Maybe do your homework next time you talk.

It's not all that complicated to understand how Marciano could be ranked higher.

Really?

I know that all boxers fight journeymen and in the early stage of their pro careers, but the amount of no hoppers beaten by Marciano is remarkable. Go check out the records of them.
Contrast it to Anthony Joshua who began to compete against top level opposition fairly early ... However, AJ will never be able to match Marciano's nostalgic power in the view of ignorant boxing aficionados.

Tyson and Holyfield's records at HW are far from perfect and you know it.

Unfortunately Holyfield had Riddick Bowe's and Lennox Lewis during his era. Hard to get out of that era undefeated.

 

[Hagler]

Not any way ... Walcott, Moore and Charles had their best days behind them when Marciano beat them, it's equivalent to Terry Norris having a win over Sugar Ray Leonard or Jeff Horn having a win over Manny Pacquiao.

And still, by all accounts and tapes they were still pretty good and gave him hell. Boxrec is a thing, reading and watching footage is another.

Let's ignore that Wladimir avenged his loss against Brewster, and let's ignore the fact that Ross Purity and Corrie Sanders didn't do shit after beating Wladimir. They never climbed up the ranks to earn the right to box for the title ... why would the world champion chase them? It's not like there was a public demand for those rematches either.

He did came back stronger than ever after those losses, reigned for over 10 years and boxed everyone that was thrown at him, among them opponents like David Haye who in 2011 was probably much more dangerous than Ross Purity and Corrie Sanders LOL ... sorry to say it, but you're being beyond ignorant.

Let's also ignore the fact that the audience thought that La Starza beat Marciano in their first fight. Maybe do your homework next time you talk.

One controversial victory ? God, I guess no other ATG has any. Great point. On a side note, the rematch wasn't as close. That's 2 good wins for Marciano.

We may agree on this : Purity and Sanders were nothing special. And they did KO Wlad. Thanks for emphasizing this.

Sadly, you're right about Haye : he's probably the best win in Wlad's resume. You're perfectly entitled to call him an ATG, but he is not. And he didn't give a great account of himself in the ring against Wlad. Once again, Captain Boxrec : Wlad is great, but his record is far from perfect. You may blame it on the era, the fact of the matter is that he does lack landmark wins. I have a great deal of respect for Pipino Cuevas's streak of defenses, but he's hardly an ATG at WW given the names he beat. It's not that difficult to comprehend. You can do it.

Really?

I know that all boxers fight journeymen and in the early stage of their pro careers, but the amount of no hoppers beaten by Marciano is remarkable. Go check out the records of them.
Contrast it to Anthony Joshua who began to compete against top level opposition fairly early ... However, AJ will never be able to match Marciano's nostalgic power in the view of ignorant boxing aficionados.

Marciano beat no hopers. He also beat great boxers. AJ is probably a bigger puncher. Not sure about what you mean here.

Unfortunately Holyfield had Riddick Bowe's and Lennox Lewis during his era. Hard to get out of that era undefeated.

Good point. He also lost to lesser guys, but overall he's certainly in Wlad's league considering their eras.

 

[defjaam]

And still, by all accounts and tapes they were still pretty good and gave him hell. Boxrec is a thing, reading and watching footage is another.

I don't know whoever mentioned boxrec. But if you can give Marciano credit for those wins, why don't you give Wladimir credit for wins where where boxed slick no. 1 contenders like Chris Byrd, Tony Thompson, Povetkin who were at their best when he boxed them?

One controversial victory ? God, I guess no other ATG has any. Great point.

Yea, that's exactly what I said, especially in that context. Now you're being somewhat pathetic, because you know you fucked up, LOL.

On a side note, the rematch wasn't as close. That's 2 good wins for Marciano.

On a side note ... a first fight is a first fight, a rematch is a rematch and a rubber match is a rubber match. So let's again turn the nostalgic ignorance machine on and call a potential gift decision a "good win".

Again if you give Marciano credit for that win, why doesn't Wladimir get credit for certain wins?

We may agree on this : Purity and Sanders were nothing special. And they did KO Wlad. Thanks for emphasizing this.

Thanks for going the pathetic route again and twisting my words.
Sanders with his power however was something special, I think Lennox Lewis (who knew him from sparring) called him the hardest puncher he ever shared the ring with.

 

[Hagler]

I don't know whoever mentioned boxrec. But if you can give Marciano credit for those wins, why don't you give Wladimir credit for wins where where boxed slick no. 1 contenders like Chris Byrd, Tony Thompson, Povetkin who were at their best when he boxed them?

They are certainly good wins, albeit hardly wins against ATGs or potential hall of famers. Which is - along with the losses - the difference between Marciano and Klitschko.

Yea, that's exactly what I said, especially in that context. Now you're being somewhat pathetic, because you know you fucked up, LOL.

I do understand you're running short of arguments, that being said this way of discussing didn't do you any good the fist time you registered in here, proncley.

On a side note ... a first fight is a first fight, a rematch is a rematch and a rubber match is a rubber match. So let's again turn the nostalgic ignorance machine on and call a potential gift decision a "good win".

Again if you give Marciano credit for that win, why doesn't Wladimir get credit for certain wins?

I do give Wlad credit for his wins and his career. I've already said he's a great boxer, and said above that the likes of Thompson, Povetkin or Byrd were good opponents. You're creating controversy where there isn't.

Media reports of the first fight say that it was close. But you know better, of course. *sigh* A close fight isn't a robbery. A win over a good opponent is a good win, no matter if it took place in the 1950's or the 2000-2010s. It's not that complicated. Nostalgia is a well-known bias among fans. Discarding fighters because you didn't grow up watching them is another.

Thanks for going the pathetic route again and twisting my words.
Sanders with his power however was something special, I think Lennox Lewis (who knew him from sparring) called him the hardest puncher he ever shared the ring with.

Sanders could punch. On the other hand, he didn't exactly have an immense career this side of beating Wlad.

Dude. As I said earlier a case can be made for ranking Marciano lower and Wlad higher. You do have an opinion on this matter, this is fucking awesome, and so do I. No need to start shit with people who happen to disagree and get canned once again.

 

[borntoloseNOT]

To each his own, pumpkin. Take back the name calling and cram it. Being undefeated and beating Walcott twice, Moore and Charles twice - plus a couple other good wins - is pretty solid, any way you look at it. Wlad is great, but he hardly beat any HOF contender and has 3 unavenged loses to B-level fighters from when he was far from over the hill. It's not all that complicated to understand how Marciano could be ranked higher. Tyson and Holyfield's records at HW are far from perfect and you know it. Now, there may be a case for Marciano's going down a notch and Wlad, Tyson or Evander's being above him, nothing wrong with that. Not being an asshole could help this case.

Marciano has a great case. Not No1 in my mind, but not some bum either. You don't get wins over Charles because you aren't great. Charles was the smoothest most technical boxer of his time. He wasn't the type of boxer that just gets old and falls off. Marciano fought and beat a dangerous risk in Charles.

 

[Hagler]

Marciano has a great case. Not No1 in my mind, but not some bum either. You don't get wins over Charles because you aren't great. Charles was the smoothest most technical boxer of his time. He wasn't the type of boxer that just gets old and falls off. Marciano fought and beat a dangerous risk in Charles.

That pretty much sums it up. Not the greatest or top 5 material, but great nonetheless.

 

[Streeter]

Ali beat prime Foreman, Liston, and Frazier......... still he fights prime Joe Louis he loses.

 

[nastyleft]

Glass Joe

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

I ranked him 3rd in my list mostly because he's the only Heavyweight champ in history with a perfect record. Peeps usually underrate him cause of his style and the contenders he fought but it's not like he was a ducker. Wlad never fought an ATG. And I'd say realistically, Tyson never beat anybody very impressive either. His greatest win is against a natural LHW who won the title against an old man Holmes.

Marciano started his career in his mid 20s with no finesse and went to beat all the guys out there. His KO ratio is the highest ever of a HW champ and was only floored twice in his entire career. That's genuinely amazing!

Wait.. rocky debuted at 25 years old?!
Mother of goldberg!
I’m sorry but that’s the greatest most unrealistic feat of any champ from his time and later. And to be undefeated for long at hw where lights can go out any sec while being that limited. crazy kramming.
He just went from nothing to 1# in my list.

 

[Alcibiades007]

Wait.. rocky debuted at 25 years old?!
Mother of goldberg!
I’m sorry but that’s the greatest most unrealistic feat of any champ from his time and later. And to be undefeated for long at hw where lights can go out any sec while being that limited. crazy kramming.
He just went from nothing to 1# in my list.

Lights never seemed to go out for Marciano. He had is nose split in 2 and kept going until he KTFO his opponent. And a bunch of unbelievable in-fight injuries but he was genuinely relentless and kept throwing bombs through all the punishment he took.

Marciano vs Prime Tyson is one of the most interesting ATG match ups. An immovable object vs an unstoppable force.

 

[randomg1t]

Lights never seemed to go out for Marciano. He had is nose split in 2 and kept going until he KTFO his opponent. And a bunch of unbelievable in-fight injuries but he was genuinely relentless and kept throwing bombs through all the punishment he took.

Marciano vs Prime Tyson is one of the most interesting ATG match ups. An immovable object vs an unstoppable force.

honestly, i think taking punishment from tyson isn't the best way to go about beating him.

trying to tough it out against prime mike will get you knocked out, and i don't care who you are.

 

[Alcibiades007]

honestly, i think taking punishment from tyson isn't the best way to go about beating him.

trying to tough it out against prime mike will get you knocked out, and i don't care who you are.

If he makes it past round 5, Marciano takes it for sure. But all things considered that's a big if.

 

[GolovkinGOAT]

George Foreman all day.

The only Heavyweight TRUE Juggernaut with the crossing high guard always in range to fight back in a POST Comeback era. 11 years retired to come back and be Champ at 45 against Undefeated Moorer.

Would love to have seen Prime Foreman or Post Foreman fight Jack Johnson or any Heavyweights from the early 20th Century.

Big Poppa Grill