Who knew that Collar and Elbow Wrestling still existed? Well sort of...

European martial arts and combat sports are so underrated.
 
Dermo said:
European martial arts and combat sports are so underrated.
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Yeah for sure. This art is facinating to me because of my scotch irish roots. Wonder if any of my ancestors were "scufflers". I like how they call themselves "scufflers" I can imagin some saying it with an irsh accent :)
 
Estebanantonio said:
Yeah for sure. This art is facinating to me because of my scotch irish roots. Wonder if any of my ancestors were "scufflers". I like how they call themselves "scufflers" I can imagin some saying it with an irsh accent :)
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Makes you want to hit up some highland games, huh?:cool:
 
All 11 pages of this thread were cool. And i hardly frequent the grappling forum.

Sucks that TS never heard from Scuffler again.
 
Me and my friend with the same last name were planning on hitting up the highland games here this May. Don't think they have c&e there though, but caber toss should be awesome
 
I'd be very interested in training this type of style. I think the clinch is one of the most useful positions in fighting, I dislike that striking and grappling from there are separated by martial arts. I'd like to see how you guys mix up dirty boxing and takedowns. Or mares.
 
Doctor Venture said:
I'd be very interested in training this type of style. I think the clinch is one of the most useful positions in fighting, I dislike that striking and grappling from there are separated by martial arts. I'd like to see how you guys mix up dirty boxing and takedowns. Or mares.
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The little guy that introduced me to c&e explained it to me like this:

When clinched in the c&e use shin kicks to bring their focus to their lower body which opens up targets in the upper body. Then dirty box a few shots to gain their attention towards their face/ribs/kidneys, which usually causes them to arch their torso backwards or forwards, or causes them to step away in defense. You then step in or sweep for the mare or trip. Trip if they step, mare if they sway, is his golden rule. Striking and clinching working as one is so much more effective, in my opinion.
 
Dermo said:
European martial arts and combat sports are so underrated.
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True, i can't even train CACC in Holland, let alone C&E. Great thread and i hope some more material pops up. I would love to convince some grappling/mma-gyms in Holland to hire a C&E instructor. From what it seems its one of the arts where you can easily transition from striking to grappling.
 
Estebanantonio said:
Very interesting thread. This art needs an aggressive salesman/promoter. I disagree that video instructionals would help the art die. I think it would bring awreness and legitemacy to pratitioners
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I agree. After spending a couple years now with the guy that introduced me to c&e, I believe he should start making vids for youtube at least. He does things so unorthadox to how I or the rest of the guys in the club were trained. I've seen him go toe to toe with very good BJJ brown belts. I've only seen him submitted a handful of times ever and that's usually against a brown belt or higher. If I had to rank him in compared to BJJ I would say he is a strong brown when addressing his skill and ability. The problem with him though, is he has anxiety issues, which is why I'm trying to get him to do vids, instead of opening a school. He has panic attacks around large groups of people that he doesn't know. Really quiet and frankly a little wierd but great grappler and funny guy when you get to know him. He doesn't care about competing or teaching really.

He only shows up so he can learn new stuff. He's been doing c&e for like 20 years and only learned other stuff by watching videos of UFC in the early days and youtube later on. We took him to a no-gi BJJ class ran by a great BJJ black belt. He went through the whole class without even being put in a bad position (and that's with him being overly respectful and timid due to his anxiety). The instructor pulled him to the side and complimented him for being a complete natural at BJJ and had nothing but praises for his technique (which includes his BJJ tech which he basically learned by watching videos and trying them out on us at the club).

I believe his vids could open up new aspects that most grapplers have never thought of, i know this because just grappling with him once done so for me and whenever he shows up, I learn something new.

I'll admit, I would be skeptic about some Tom, Dick, or Harry claiming he's a legitimate scuffler. But after my experience with the guy at our club and the interaction with scuffler, I would definately take a class, or watch a vid, and evaluate them for myself. C&E is legit and here's something Scuffler told me about whether someone claiming they are a legitimate scuffler.

"If they were taught by a scuffler great! If they learned the "natural way", then judge them by their fruits."
 
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14,000+ views to this thread. That is amazing. Wait 'till I finish typing some of the stuff I learned through my emails with Scuffler. I lost the original emails but I remember much of it from repeating it over and over with the guys at the club. I also have a few emails in my yahoo account from him. Since so many people are interested and I fear the worst has occurred with Scuffler's health, I've decided to write it all down and put it in one post on this thread. I should have it ready in a few days or possibly a little longer cause we also spoke about scrapping techniques and philosophy as well.
 
I'm irish, so learning anything I can about my ancestor's grappling form is very intriguing. I really want to see that epic heel hook chain :)
 
I am one of Scuffler's former students. Scuffler is in pretty bad shape physically. He has wanted to post on this board for a while but has not had the ability nor time. I was given his password and asked to relate information to all whom ask. If I can answer it I will. If I cannot I will ask Scuffler directly.

I am still reading tons of questions and comments. I will get to them ASAP.

Private Mesages:
Does Scuffler have a school?
No. He tried to open a C&E school but only had two people attend which was myself and one other. I grew up next door to Scuffler and my parents thought it would keep me out of trouble and it did. Plus it introduced me to my Irish roots.

Are there in schools in the US or Canada?
I have not heard of any C&E schools in Canada. That's not to say that no one there knows the style, only that I have no knowledge of them. The only place I have heard of in the US was supposedly in NC but again, it went out of business years ago and I am unsure of whether they were re-creationists, natural way, or trained. They were only a club, not a school.

Does C&E still exist?
Yes but not in its purist of forms. I consider myself a scuffler first and a grappler second. I always have the scuffling philosophy in mind. Utilize speed and balance to achieve positioning so that strength can then be applied towards the leverage gained. This is true for standing or ground grappling. The pure pre-American form of C&E is only something that I do for training to ensure that if some thinks they're going to grab a collar-and-elbow tie up, they'll be putting themselves in the worst position possible against me. C&E teaches to use maximum power when mule kicking the leg for certain mares or leg kicking for trips. The nerves in my shins are completely deadened from practicing the style. Average grapplers are not prepared for this. The post-American style of C&E is what I preffer. I love working for pins and I love submissions even more. Does C&E exist? Yes. Is it in a critical point of its existence? Yes. Definately.

Where is the leg lock flow?
Scuffler was in too bad of shape to do this. I will consider making and uploading a video. But I have a different opinion about teaching techniques through video. The reason being, if I do a video where I show an exclusive C&E technique, it will be adopted by the current more popular styles such as CACC and BJJ, which does not help C&E at all. I am instead considering making a complete curricullum video and distributing it through personal email to email, instead of mass youtube. I would also only distribute the video to those who would then help to spread awareness of C&E, not just adopt the techniques into BJJ/CACC and still call what they do only BJJ/CACC. I agree with a previous post. C&E needs a spokesperson and a plan. I am currently trying to develop that plan with Scuffler. A way to teach pre/post-American C&E so that practitioners actually represent the style instead of using the techniques and representing another.

That's all the time I have at this moment. Please post questions for Scuffler or myself and I will respond ASAP. I will try to check this board frequently.
 
Thank you so much for replying, scufflers student. This thread is fascinating reading and I very much hope that your plan sees through to fruition :)
 
Amazing thread, please update when you have those email videos are available.
 
Scuffler said:
I am one of Scuffler's former students. Scuffler is in pretty bad shape physically. He has wanted to post on this board for a while but has not had the ability nor time. I was given his password and asked to relate information to all whom ask. If I can answer it I will. If I cannot I will ask Scuffler directly.

I am still reading tons of questions and comments. I will get to them ASAP.

Private Mesages:
Does Scuffler have a school?
No. He tried to open a C&E school but only had two people attend which was myself and one other. I grew up next door to Scuffler and my parents thought it would keep me out of trouble and it did. Plus it introduced me to my Irish roots.

Are there in schools in the US or Canada?
I have not heard of any C&E schools in Canada. That's not to say that no one there knows the style, only that I have no knowledge of them. The only place I have heard of in the US was supposedly in NC but again, it went out of business years ago and I am unsure of whether they were re-creationists, natural way, or trained. They were only a club, not a school.

Does C&E still exist?
Yes but not in its purist of forms. I consider myself a scuffler first and a grappler second. I always have the scuffling philosophy in mind. Utilize speed and balance to achieve positioning so that strength can then be applied towards the leverage gained. This is true for standing or ground grappling. The pure pre-American form of C&E is only something that I do for training to ensure that if some thinks they're going to grab a collar-and-elbow tie up, they'll be putting themselves in the worst position possible against me. C&E teaches to use maximum power when mule kicking the leg for certain mares or leg kicking for trips. The nerves in my shins are completely deadened from practicing the style. Average grapplers are not prepared for this. The post-American style of C&E is what I preffer. I love working for pins and I love submissions even more. Does C&E exist? Yes. Is it in a critical point of its existence? Yes. Definately.

Where is the leg lock flow?
Scuffler was in too bad of shape to do this. I will consider making and uploading a video. But I have a different opinion about teaching techniques through video. The reason being, if I do a video where I show an exclusive C&E technique, it will be adopted by the current more popular styles such as CACC and BJJ, which does not help C&E at all. I am instead considering making a complete curricullum video and distributing it through personal email to email, instead of mass youtube. I would also only distribute the video to those who would then help to spread awareness of C&E, not just adopt the techniques into BJJ/CACC and still call what they do only BJJ/CACC. I agree with a previous post. C&E needs a spokesperson and a plan. I am currently trying to develop that plan with Scuffler. A way to teach pre/post-American C&E so that practitioners actually represent the style instead of using the techniques and representing another.

That's all the time I have at this moment. Please post questions for Scuffler or myself and I will respond ASAP. I will try to check this board frequently.
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CACC isn't as popular as BJJ, and I've found CACC more willingly gives credit to where it is due. But thank you very much for posting, and I hope Scuffler gets well soon.
 
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