Who knew that Collar and Elbow Wrestling still existed? Well sort of...

Bumpkin Young

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I go to a grappling club on the side, where there are a few guys with various backgrounds. Yesterday we had a little guy come in and when we asked what his background was, he said he learned a few things from family members. Well, we start rolling and he is WAY better than we expected him to be. I think he subbed everyone at least once, and he only weighed like a buck-thirty at best, and he was tossing us left and right from the clinch.

Being the curious type that we are, we drilled him further about his training background, thinking he must have trained in some amount of Judo, and he told us it was Collar and Elbow Wrestling. He then was nice enough to show us a few nogi throws and a couple of gi throws which he called mares.

The techs seemed similar to Judo and seem like they would work well for both gi and nogi. Anyone else have any experience in Collar and Elbow Wrestling or even knew it still existed?

Oh and he showed me a wicked leg lock that I will get him to further explain next time. It was sick! Seemed like he baited me by forcing me to roll out of a heel hook attempt. He then sat up but I'm not sure how he entangled me, but I couldn't do jack! He then showed that he had several options for the finish (showed others, because I was actually tied up at the moment lol).

Whatever it was, I've NEVER seen or been in that position before (and leg locks are my specialty). When I learn it, I'll see if I can upload it to show you guys. I've been searching all the sites but haven't found a video for it, so I'm guessing it either doesn't currently exist in other systems, it's extremely rare, or it's something that he's come up with on his on. Whichever, I was pretty surprised that this little guy brought so much to the table. Sorry for the long post, but it was an interesting session.
 
Reminds me of a time I ran into a guy who did Pehlwani. Turned out to be dating a girl I knew, while incidentally being married.

But grappling with him was real neat. He did a lot of drop toe-hold type stuff, which was, if I recall, the most unusual sort of thing he did. I actually don't know if that is Pehlwani or just him being unorthodox. Hard for me to remember other stuff he did, because it was so long ago. He was a BJJ practitioner as well, but I can't remember how much it showed or didn't show.

I know he was always talking about "using your weight" as the best thing you could do in grappling. For example, "That was great! You really used your weight there!"
 
And it sounds to me like this guy caught you in a step-over toe hold, a compression lock that was used often in pro-wrestling as a follow-up to an Achilles if someone rolled through.

Dave Dean, assistant coach at MSU, showed me and a bunch of guys the move during MSU's intensive high school camps and taught it as a way to basically make a guy hurt enough that he pinned himself. He said you had to be careful about how you used it in high school and to be subtle about it, otherwise you could get broken up or called for potentially dangerous.
 
Gordon Solie, the old pro wrestling announcer, used to call hip-tosses "mares" or "flying mares." So I'm guessing collar-and-elbow shares some genealogy with catch wrestling.
 
The only details I can offer at this time is that one of the throws he showed us was a collar and elbow tie up (left hand on back of neck, right hand controlling elbow) version of Koshi Guruma?, Ashi Guruma?, and the other one I'm not sure what it's called in Judo but it was a armdrag variation.

During the sparring, he landed a few things that look close to Harai TsuriKomi Ashi variations and a few big throws. Like I said, very similar to Judo but slightly different and he seems to kick the legs out harder than Judo guys have done me. I even think he "river dance" kicked my leg out once. He didn't call it that, but it looked like something I would see on lord of the dance. Caught me off guard though and he got the takedown.

His ground work was pretty descent as well. He was fast as greased oil shit but he was too small to maintain good bases on top, but he was very hard to keep down. The only submissions I can recall him attempting/achieving was a chicken wing shoulder lock, a straight ankle lock, a heel hook, whatever the move he got me in was, a guillotine choke, and that's all I can recall.

With only this one guy and this one session to go upon, I would say that C&E Wrestling seems to focus on speed (both ground and standing), throws over takedowns, submission before position, good takedown defense, fast scrambles, and if there's more techs like the leg lock he got me in I would venture to say pretty descent submission focus. I would say the main weakness that he had was maintaining a good mount base, but he was smaller than all of us. Good Side Control though.

Hope that was better detail for you. He'll be at the next session, so I'll ask some more questions about the basics.
 
Gordon Solie, the old pro wrestling announcer, used to call hip-tosses "mares" or "flying mares." So I'm guessing collar-and-elbow shares some genealogy with catch wrestling.

I can't believe I didn't think about that... "Snap Mares". I should have asked him to show me that. I learned the pro wrestling way, I wonder how he does it.
 
And it sounds to me like this guy caught you in a step-over toe hold, a compression lock that was used often in pro-wrestling as a follow-up to an Achilles if someone rolled through.

Dave Dean, assistant coach at MSU, showed me and a bunch of guys the move during MSU's intensive high school camps and taught it as a way to basically make a guy hurt enough that he pinned himself. He said you had to be careful about how you used it in high school and to be subtle about it, otherwise you could get broken up or called for potentially dangerous.

No, but that is the set up he used after I rolled out of the heel hook. From the toe hold, he somehow grapevined that leg in a modified calf cutter. From there, I'm not sure, it's hard to tell because he still my back, and the whole time you are feeling pain on that leg, you try to roll out and you end up with both legs secured and in pain. My friend said the guy called it the "Snail Position or Snail Grapevine" but I haven't found any youtube videos with this name. I'll know next week, I'll ask if we can film him explaining it and put it up.
 
Gordon Solie, the old pro wrestling announcer, used to call hip-tosses "mares" or "flying mares." So I'm guessing collar-and-elbow shares some genealogy with catch wrestling.

Wrestling in general don't call throw mares?

my coach is ex greco roman he has taught several different maras to me
 
Collar and Elbow is another name for catch-as-catch-can wrestling. That's a really old school name for it. Is this guy of English decent?
 
No, but that is the set up he used after I rolled out of the heel hook. From the toe hold, he somehow grapevined that leg in a modified calf cutter. From there, I'm not sure, it's hard to tell because he still my back, and the whole time you are feeling pain on that leg, you try to roll out and you end up with both legs secured and in pain. My friend said the guy called it the "Snail Position or Snail Grapevine" but I haven't found any youtube videos with this name. I'll know next week, I'll ask if we can film him explaining it and put it up.

I dunno, sounds just like a step-over toe hold to me. The step-over toe hold compresses the calf; it's name is misleading. The part about "both legs secured and in pain" doesn't sound like a step-over toe hold though. Generally, turning away from the pressure of a step-over toe hold gives your opponent your free leg to attack though.
 
Did it look like the bottom half of the STF pro-wrestling hold?
 
Does this sound like what he was doing?

Collar-and-elbow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A flying mare or a snap mare was a common takedown. A mare was a throw in which the feet of the thrown opponent actually were higher than his head. Ground wrestling began after one or both of the scufflers hit the ground. Half-nelsons and various grapevines and other ground control techniques were then employed.
 
Oh and he showed me a wicked leg lock that I will get him to further explain next time. It was sick! Seemed like he baited me by forcing me to roll out of a heel hook attempt. He then sat up but I'm not sure how he entangled me, but I couldn't do jack! He then showed that he had several options for the finish (showed others, because I was actually tied up at the moment lol).

Was it a calf crusher where he gets behind you with the leg laced?
 
Home for a minute, not much time.

No, he wasn't english he was a little country guy but his last name was Irish if that helps.

My friend called and said he found the tech in a japanese strong-style match and the announcer called it the "Escargot" lock (but he has it on VHS). Still couldn't find it on youtube. I'll start looking again when I get back. Escargot = "Snail" so i'm guessing it's the same move.

If anyone can find the match where this hold is used, I would appreciate it.
 
TTT For more info.


Interesting thread...
 
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