Who is the greatest racehorse of all-time?

[Takes Two To Tango]

This is the reason I chose this horse.

Records. Secretariat holds the stakes record for each of the Triple Crown races, the Kentucky Derby (1:59 2/5 ) the Preakness Stakes (1:53), and the Belmont Stakes (2:24). At 18, Steve Cauthen became the youngest jockey to win the Triple Crown, riding Affirmed in 1978.

Who holds the record for the Triple Crown?

Despite advancements in sports, Secretariat's 1973 Triple Crown records remain unbroken.










Feel free to suggest more names, I'll consider adding them.

 

[steeldragon]

Aussie horse called black caviar never lost a race in 25 appearances with around 3/4 being group 1 races.

 

[HomeCheese]

This is the reason I chose this horse.

Records. Secretariat holds the stakes record for each of the Triple Crown races, the Kentucky Derby (1:59 2/5 ) the Preakness Stakes (1:53), and the Belmont Stakes (2:24). At 18, Steve Cauthen became the youngest jockey to win the Triple Crown, riding Affirmed in 1978.

Who holds the record for the Triple Crown?

Despite advancements in sports, Secretariat's 1973 Triple Crown records remain unbroken.










Feel free to suggest more names, I'll consider adding them.

Not only the greatest horse of all time but arguably the greatest athlete too. Have you seen the ESPN Sports Century on Secretariat? It's awesome and on YouTube.

 

[650lb Sumo]

This could be broken into flat and jumpers, but overall it's objectively Frankel, and if you disagree you either DKSAHR or are biased and picking your horse for jingoistic reasons.

 

[HomeCheese]

This is the reason I chose this horse.

Records. Secretariat holds the stakes record for each of the Triple Crown races, the Kentucky Derby (1:59 2/5 ) the Preakness Stakes (1:53), and the Belmont Stakes (2:24). At 18, Steve Cauthen became the youngest jockey to win the Triple Crown, riding Affirmed in 1978.

Who holds the record for the Triple Crown?

Despite advancements in sports, Secretariat's 1973 Triple Crown records remain unbroken.










Feel free to suggest more names, I'll consider adding them.

Not only the greatest horse of all time but arguably the greatest athlete too. Have you seen the ESPN Sports Century on Secretariat? It's awesome and on YouTube.

This could be broken into flat and jumpers, but overall it's objectively Frankel, and if you disagree you either DKSAHR or are biased and picking your horse for jingoistic reasons.

Why, what's special about Frankel?

 

[HomeCheese]

This could be broken into flat and jumpers, but overall it's objectively Frankel, and if you disagree you either DKSAHR or are biased and picking your horse for jingoistic reasons.

I looked up 2 out of the 14 races Frankel won and his times are not spectacular, plenty of other horses have put up better times than him in this races.

How does this qualify him as the best ever? He's not even the fastest in his country.

Secretariat still has the top time in all 3 triple crown races and it has been over 50 years since he retired.

 

[650lb Sumo]

Not only the greatest horse of all time but arguably the greatest athlete too. Have you seen the ESPN Sports Century on Secretariat? It's awesome and on YouTube.

Why, what's special about Frankel?

I looked up 2 out of the 14 races Frankel won and his times are not spectacular, plenty of other horses have put up better times than him in this races.

How does this qualify him as the best ever? He's not even the fastest in his country.

Secretariat still has the top time in all 3 triple crown races and it has been over 50 years since he retired.

I suppose to do a thorough analysis horses should be broken down by distance and surface, not just jump or flat. Dirt and turf being a significant difference. But if you're not familiar with Frankel that's quite an oversight. He was voted GOAT at the World Thoroughbred Conference and is ranked #1 ever by Timeform:

Frankel rated best horse of all time at World Thoroughbred Rankings

Frankel was rated the best horse of all time at the 2012 World Thoroughbred Rankings on Tuesday

www.theguardian.com

Timeform Top Horses of All Time | Greatest Racehorses

Timeform top horses of all time. Get a list of the greatest racehorses of all time according to Timeform ratings, for Flat and Jumps.

www.timeform.com

He won all 14 of his races, and the last nine were Group One. Group One races in the UK are Ireland are the highest standard of racing in the world.

https://www.ifhaonline.org/resources/WTGradedRanking/LWGRank.asp?batch=6

[Edit: To be fair that table is from 2022. The ranking changes a bit from year to year. If you just change the number on the end of the link you can peruse different years. Put '8' for the latest one.]

In the US and Canada they say Grade One instead of Group One, anyway note that Secretariat's prime wins were not all Grade One. Frankel also raced much more recently, and athletes, equine or otherwise, are getting faster. Times vary a lot with the going, and level of competition. Full respect to Secretariat but he wouldn't have won nine UK Group Ones in a row in the 2010s.

 

[HomeCheese]

I suppose to do a thorough analysis horses should be broken down by distance and surface, not just jump or flat. Dirt and turf being a significant difference. But if you're not familiar with Frankel that's quite an oversight. He was voted GOAT at the World Thoroughbred Conference and is ranked #1 ever by Timeform:

Frankel rated best horse of all time at World Thoroughbred Rankings

Frankel was rated the best horse of all time at the 2012 World Thoroughbred Rankings on Tuesday

www.theguardian.com

Timeform Top Horses of All Time | Greatest Racehorses

Timeform top horses of all time. Get a list of the greatest racehorses of all time according to Timeform ratings, for Flat and Jumps.

www.timeform.com

He won all 14 of his races, and the last nine were Group One. Group One races in the UK are Ireland are the highest standard of racing in the world.

https://www.ifhaonline.org/resources/WTGradedRanking/LWGRank.asp?batch=6

[Edit: To be fair that table is from 2022. The ranking changes a bit from year to year. If you just change the number on the end of the link you can peruse different years. Put '8' for the latest one.]

In the US and Canada they say Grade One instead of Group One, anyway note that Secretariat's prime wins were not all Grade One. Frankel also raced much more recently, and athletes, equine or otherwise, are getting faster. Times vary a lot with the going, and level of competition. Full respect to Secretariat but he wouldn't have won nine UK Group Ones in a row in the 2010s.

This is a good point, horses are getting faster. Yet, Secretariat's times have never been equaled in history either before or since. It's been over 50 years and no horse has beat his times in the triple crown.

Numerous horses have beaten Frankel's times in various races.

Just look at the 2011 Guineas Stakes and Frankel's time was 1:37:30. Some horses have run that race in the 1:34:'s. Frankel's time in this race is pedestrian when compared to other winner of this race, both before and after 2011. How does this even make him the greatest horse in your country?

His times were average for a winner.

 

[Yoricks Wisdom]

Seabiscuit!!

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

This is a good point, horses are getting faster. Yet, Secretariat's times have never been equaled in history either before or since. It's been over 50 years and no horse has beat his times in the triple crown.

Numerous horses have beaten Frankel's times in various races.

Just look at the 2011 Guineas Stakes and Frankel's time was 1:37:30. Some horses have run that race in the 1:34:'s. Frankel's time in this race is pedestrian when compared to other winner of this race, both before and after 2011. How does this even make him the greatest horse in your country?

His times were average for a winner.

Well said.

 

[White Whale]

Man O' War was so popular they broadcast his funeral on the radio.

 

[650lb Sumo]

This is a good point, horses are getting faster. Yet, Secretariat's times have never been equaled in history either before or since. It's been over 50 years and no horse has beat his times in the triple crown.

Numerous horses have beaten Frankel's times in various races.

Just look at the 2011 Guineas Stakes and Frankel's time was 1:37:30. Some horses have run that race in the 1:34:'s. Frankel's time in this race is pedestrian when compared to other winner of this race, both before and after 2011. How does this even make him the greatest horse in your country?

His times were average for a winner.

I'm not going to go through all the times of each race of the horses and compare them. You could also analyse which other horses were beaten and the distances of the races and the horses' exact ages etc. for an exhaustive comparison. Unless the going was identical each time though, for the same race in different years, which it obviously wasn't, you aren't comparing exactly like with like.

The 2,000 Guineas record:



Kameko = 1:34.72
Frankel = 1:37.30

difference = 2.58

How many horses would you say beat Frankel's time in 2020? Four? More? Are they all better than Frankel?

I did check the going in both years and it was good to firm in both, but I suspect it was faster in 2020.

Maybe it was just a faster race. There are other variables.

In any case you seem to be shifting the goalposts from 'greatest racehorse of all time' to 'racehorse having the most and oldest record times'.

[Edit: This was really just a more detailed recap that Frankel's standard of competition was significantly higher.]

I'm sorry you had to bring nationality into the discussion but I thought it would only be a matter of time. We can give Secretariat the 'greatest US racehorse of all time' belt if you like.

 

[HomeCheese]

I'm not going to go through all the times of each race of the horses and compare them. You could also analyse which other horses were beaten and the distances of the races and the horses' exact ages etc. for an exhaustive comparison. Unless the going was identical each time though, for the same race in different years, which it obviously wasn't, you aren't comparing exactly like with like.

The 2,000 Guineas record:



Kameko = 1:34.72
Frankel = 1:37.30

difference = 2.58

How many horses would you say beat Frankel's time in 2020? Four? More? Are they all better than Frankel?

I did check the going in both years and it was good to firm in both, but I suspect it was faster in 2020.

Maybe it was just a faster race. There are other variables.

In any case you seem to be shifting the goalposts from 'greatest racehorse of all time' to 'racehorse having the most and oldest record times'.

[Edit: This was really just a more detailed recap that Frankel's standard of competition was significantly higher.]

I'm sorry you had to bring nationality into the discussion but I thought it would only be a matter of time. We can give Secretariat the 'greatest US racehorse of all time' belt if you like.

Not trying to move the goal post at all, the idea was to point out that Secretariat times have never been beaten in the three most important races he ran. No horse has equaled his times both before and since; hence, fastest horse ever in the three most important horse races in North America.

Secretariat didn't just win the Preakness, he obliterated the field on his way to record setting performance, fastest time ever by over 2.5 seconds. He had an incredible 31 length victory. This is like someone winning the olympic 1,500 race by 20 yards. It just doesn't happen.

Frankel has 14 victories, is there a single 1 of these race where he/she holds the track record? Of the 4 races I looked at the time Frankie put up were historically VERY average.

I believe you can make a good case that Secretariat was one of the greatest athletes of all time, let alone just a great racehorse. The victory in the Preakness is one of the greatest athletic performances in history.

Certainly his legacy lives on, this year every single horse running in the Kentucky derby was a genetic descendant of Secretariat.

 

[650lb Sumo]

Not trying to move the goal post at all, the idea was to point out that Secretariat times have never been beaten in the three most important races he ran. No horse has equaled his times both before and since; hence, fastest horse ever in the three most important horse races in North America.

Secretariat didn't just win the Preakness, he obliterated the field on his way to record setting performance, fastest time ever by over 2.5 seconds. He had an incredible 31 length victory. This is like someone winning the olympic 1,500 race by 20 yards. It just doesn't happen.

Frankel has 14 victories, is there a single 1 of these race where he/she holds the track record? Of the 4 races I looked at the time Frankie put up were historically VERY average.

I believe you can make a good case that Secretariat was one of the greatest athletes of all time, let alone just a great racehorse. The victory in the Preakness is one of the greatest athletic performances in history.

Certainly his legacy lives on, this year every single horse running in the Kentucky derby was a genetic descendant of Secretariat.

Frankel left other outstanding horses behind like they were standing still, and unsurprisingly has a highly impressive stud record as well. A horse's (and jockey's) job isn't to set a time record. They don't even know the time. It's to win races, which is what Frankel did. You can do a write up on Frankel's course times vs Secretariat's if you want. Maybe a comparison of the ratings of the horses each beat.

 

[HomeCheese]

Frankel left other outstanding horses behind like they were standing still, and unsurprisingly has a highly impressive stud record as well. A horse's (and jockey's) job isn't to set a time record. They don't even know the time. It's to win races, which is what Frankel did. You can do a write up on Frankel's course times vs Secretariat's if you want. Maybe a comparison of the ratings of the horses each beat.

Frankel's times are pedestrian while Secretariat's are records that still stand 50 years later.

I guess you are suggesting that if Frankel raced against better horses he could have ran faster but since he didn't have to run any faster he didn't? That is a bit of a leap of faith.

Take a look at the Greenham Stakes, again you find that historically Frankel's time is unimpressive. A horse has run that race nearly 4 seconds faster and plenty of horses both before and after Frankel have bested his time.

No horse has ever beat Secretariat's times in the Triple Crown races. Ever.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

Just wanted to put this here, what a great call.

 

[650lb Sumo]

Frankel's times are pedestrian while Secretariat's are records that still stand 50 years later.

I guess you are suggesting that if Frankel raced against better horses he could have ran faster but since he didn't have to run any faster he didn't? That is a bit of a leap of faith.

Take a look at the Greenham Stakes, again you find that historically Frankel's time is unimpressive. A horse has run that race nearly 4 seconds faster and plenty of horses both before and after Frankel have bested his time.

No horse has ever beat Secretariat's times in the Triple Crown races. Ever.

Without comparing all the times or at least a good slice of them I can't say much on the time thing. It's not something that gets paid much attention to over here I suppose. But unless you control for other variables, age, competition, going, weight carried etc., with going being the most obvious, your comparison is being confounded.

Here's the first answer I came up with for how much different going makes

(Firm) +0.25s/f to +0.76s/f
(Good/Firm) +0.11s/f to +0.56s/f
(Good)-0.35s/f to +0.24s/f
(Good/Soft)-0.22s/f to -0.78s/f
(Soft)-0.52s/f to -1.20s/f
(Heavy)-0.90s/f to -2.50s/f

So the Greenham Stakes being 7f, a third of a second's difference in going would come to 1¾s.

Looking at the Greenham Stakes 11 horses have finished faster than Frankel. Do you think those horses were all better than him? Obviously that would be an absurd claim. You can't expect the best horse to just set eternal records in every race. Frankel won all his races, and they were at (overall) the highest level of competition in the world, in a more competitive era than Secretariat raced in.

Yes obviously a horse will run faster if its competitors are faster, but as I said Frankel often made other very high-level horses look like beach donkeys as it was.

There are lots of very intelligent and highly-qualified people, and supercomputers with specialist software, and they pour all the horse data into there and out come ratings. Via salaries, prizes and bets millions and millions of £ are exchanged profitably based on these ratings being accurate. Frankel had the highest rating ever. That's all you really need to know to get the answer to your original question.

Your question has an objective and conclusive answer. You had a preconceived notion, you went public with it and it turned out to be wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It happens. You might not like it, but that's up to you to deal with rather than make me the personification of the data and bash me about it.

Returning to the Greenham Stakes the record time was set by Muhaarar.

Muhaarar's Ratings: 123, 117, 127
Frankel's Ratings: 140, 136, 143

 

[koquerelle]

Polissonne (French word meaning disobedient, mischievous)

The name fitted her 100%. She couldn't race for shit, but she was the GOAT. One of my dad's employees own her so I could go at the track every weekend to see her. She was like a dog. I miss feeding her carrots and peppermint candy.

 

[HomeCheese]

Without comparing all the times or at least a good slice of them I can't say much on the time thing. It's not something that gets paid much attention to over here I suppose. But unless you control for other variables, age, competition, going, weight carried etc., with going being the most obvious, your comparison is being confounded.

Here's the first answer I came up with for how much different going makes

(Firm) +0.25s/f to +0.76s/f
(Good/Firm) +0.11s/f to +0.56s/f
(Good)-0.35s/f to +0.24s/f
(Good/Soft)-0.22s/f to -0.78s/f
(Soft)-0.52s/f to -1.20s/f
(Heavy)-0.90s/f to -2.50s/f

So the Greenham Stakes being 7f, a third of a second's difference in going would come to 1¾s.

Looking at the Greenham Stakes 11 horses have finished faster than Frankel. Do you think those horses were all better than him? Obviously that would be an absurd claim. You can't expect the best horse to just set eternal records in every race. Frankel won all his races, and they were at (overall) the highest level of competition in the world, in a more competitive era than Secretariat raced in.

Yes obviously a horse will run faster if its competitors are faster, but as I said Frankel often made other very high-level horses look like beach donkeys as it was.

There are lots of very intelligent and highly-qualified people, and supercomputers with specialist software, and they pour all the horse data into there and out come ratings. Via salaries, prizes and bets millions and millions of £ are exchanged profitably based on these ratings being accurate. Frankel had the highest rating ever. That's all you really need to know to get the answer to your original question.

Your question has an objective and conclusive answer. You had a preconceived notion, you went public with it and it turned out to be wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It happens. You might not like it, but that's up to you to deal with rather than make me the personification of the data and bash me about it.

Returning to the Greenham Stakes the record time was set by Muhaarar.

Muhaarar's Ratings: 123, 117, 127
Frankel's Ratings: 140, 136, 143

First of all, it's not my question, I didn't start the thread.

I believe that the argument you make actually shows how great secretariat was rather than prove Frankel was better. Let me explain.

You point out that Frankel beat some good horses and put up some decent times historically in the races he won. Per your argument, the fact that only 11 horses have run the Greenham Stakes faster than Frankel is something to brag about. Much of your point seems to rest on Frankel being able to run faster but not having to because he wasn't pushed by the competition.

Generally horse races are very close and horse don't just run away from the field, especially in important and high streaks races. I see your point here and this is exactly why secretariat is so special and so different. He didn't need to run the fastest Preakness in history but he did. That race is as close to perfection as you will ever see in sports.

You can make a reasonable argument that Secretariat is the greatest athlete of all time.

I think you need to watch the Preakness with an open heart. Likely, we will never see a performance like that again.

Anyway, historically Frankel's times are average for a champion. I don't care about what your computer program says especially when the formula it uses factors in salaries and betting. You have yet to show me that Frankel was better than average.

Is there a single race where Frankel has a historically significant time? Is there even 1 race where he has a top 3 time?

 

[650lb Sumo]

First of all, it's not my question, I didn't start the thread.

I believe that the argument you make actually shows how great secretariat was rather than prove Frankel was better. Let me explain.

You point out that Frankel beat some good horses and put up some decent times historically in the races he won. Per your argument, the fact that only 11 horses have run the Greenham Stakes faster than Frankel is something to brag about. Much of your point seems to rest on Frankel being able to run faster but not having to because he wasn't pushed by the competition.

Generally horse races are very close and horse don't just run away from the field, especially in important and high streaks races. I see your point here and this is exactly why secretariat is so special and so different. He didn't need to run the fastest Preakness in history but he did. That race is as close to perfection as you will ever see in sports.

You can make a reasonable argument that Secretariat is the greatest athlete of all time.

I think you need to watch the Preakness with an open heart. Likely, we will never see a performance like that again.

Anyway, historically Frankel's times are average for a champion. I don't care about what your computer program says especially when the formula it uses factors in salaries and betting. You have yet to show me that Frankel was better than average.

Is there a single race where Frankel has a historically significant time? Is there even 1 race where he has a top 3 time?

Ok I mixed you and @Takes Two To Tango up. I didn't say anything about the significance or lack thereof of the number of horses who have beaten Frankel's time in that race. But if you want to discuss the significance of it then it's really the opposite of what you're saying. None of those eleven horses was as good as Frankel. Race records aren't the trump card you want them to be.

A lot of races aren't very close actually and it is quite common for a horse to run away from the field.

You seem to be underestimating the seriousness of horses' ratings, these ratings are very legit and are the overall way of assessing a horse's ability. You might as well say you don't care about a football team's position in the league. They aren't done by me, they are done by professional experts with supercomputers, as I said. The ratings aren't based on salaries and betting, it's the other way around. For example if bookies set their prices wrongly due to inaccurate ratings they would start haemorrhaging money.

Idk about the times - you obviously are able to use the internet so you can look them up yourself, or get Grok to do it, then come back and tell the class what you found out.

Edit: My tip for the Derby is Nightwalker e/w - get on quick because I expect him to keep coming in.