Who did you think won these close fights?

I think the argument was Hendo didn't get a 10-8 round and round 5 was by far the most lopsided round of the fight. Shogun had good offense in the round that some people gave Hendo a 10-8 in by threatening with a submission with around 1.5-2 minutes left in the round and then spent the rest of the round landing GnP.

To my recollection the argument was more "it's 10-8, because Henderson was mounted 5 times, that's DOMINANCE" while ignoring the fact that in order to mount Henderson 5 times in a round, that meant Shogun let Henderson escape from his mount at least four times. He clearly won that round, but didn't do a ton of damage with the GnP, as evidenced by the fact that Henderson was never in any real danger of being finished, but Henderson was spent and didn't offer much of anything but survival mode. I don't have a problem with scoring that one 10-8, but Henderson came much, much closer to finishing the fight in the 3rd round and had Shogun in a world of trouble, and Shogun's rally at the end of the third didn't come anywhere close to bringing it back.

If Round 5 was 10-8, an equally compelling argument can be made that Round 3 was 10-8 the other way.
 
To my recollection the argument was more "it's 10-8, because Henderson was mounted 5 times, that's DOMINANCE" while ignoring the fact that in order to mount Henderson 5 times in a round, that meant Shogun let Henderson escape from his mount at least four times. He clearly won that round, but didn't do a ton of damage with the GnP, as evidenced by the fact that Henderson was never in any real danger of being finished, but Henderson was spent and didn't offer much of anything but survival mode. I don't have a problem with scoring that one 10-8, but Henderson came much, much closer to finishing the fight in the 3rd round and had Shogun in a world of trouble, and Shogun's rally at the end of the third didn't come anywhere close to bringing it back.

If Round 5 was 10-8, an equally compelling argument can be made that Round 3 was 10-8 the other way.

That escaping from a dominant position to a less dominant position argument isn't a good one he's still losing even when he improves from mount to side control or half guard. Hendo landed almost nothing in round 5 and was mounted for the majority of the round while eating GnP. That round was way more dominant than round 3 where Hendo was on defense for the last 1.5-2 minutes of the round. I myself had round 3 a 10-8 before the last 2 minutes but I thought Shogun having a good submission attempt and then positionally dominating while landing good GnP earned him back a 9, there was no such offense from Hendo in round 5, he just got dominated in grappling and striking on the ground for almost 5 full minutes.

If round 3 in that fight is 10-8 then I would have to say round 5 was 10-7.

I think you should rewatch the 3rd and 5th rounds. Shogun was on top longer than I thought and his submission attempt was a good one, that should have been enough to earn back a 9 after the early near finish IMO, Round 5 wasn't like that Hendo had like zero offense.
 
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Had the referee been adhering to the rules (you can't be saved by the bell under the unified rules of MMA), the fight would have been stopped after the 3rd round because Bisping was visibly out of it. The picture below is 17 seconds after the horn sounded.

The referee was prevented from attending to what happened to Bisping and adhering to the rules by the fact that he had to adhere to the rules and attend to Silva who was having a victory celebration and climbing on the cage when the fight wasn't called yet.

The degree to which Bisping avoided being declared TKOd by the referee is 100% the result of Silva, so any screwing he got in the deal was 100% him screwing himself.
 
Shogun Rua- Dan Henderson: UFC 139
Frankie Edgar- Gray Maynard II: UFC 125
Robbie Lawler-Carlos Condit: UFC 195
Quinton Jackson-Lyoto Machida: UFC 123
Shogun Rua-Lyoto Machida: UFC 104
Couture- Rizzo: UFC 31
Jones-Reyes: UFC 247
Condit-Diaz: UFC 143

For me
Shogun-Henderson: Draw felt about right. Although it was so back and forth it's a little hard to remember

Frankie-Gray: I think I had Gray ahead 3-2 + a 10-8 in the first

Lawler-Condit: Love Robbie but I had Condit ahead 3-2

Jackson-Machida; Bizarre fight: 2-1 Jackson but it was so crazy how little action occured until the 3rd. Thought Rampage took the 1st 2

Rua-Machida 3-2 Shogun but not nearly as big a robbery as was acted like in the past. Close fight

Couture- Rizzo: Couture 3-2 but barely

Jones-Reyes: Felt like Reyes 3-2 was the correct score but Reyes I think maybe could have pushed a bit more to make it more decisive

Condit-Diaz: I love Nick Diaz, but it felt like Condit clearly won 3 rounds. I dunno. I guess it comes down to the 1st round.


Hendo Shogun there is no controversy. Hendo easily won the first three rounds and probably should have had a 10-8 in one of them. Shogun won the last two rounds (primarily because Hendo had gassed) but he didn't do any serious damage.

Not sure how that fight would be considered close on anyones scorecards. If it were a 3 round fight it would have been a 30-27 or a 30-26 for hendo.
 
That escaping form a dominant position to a less dominant position argument isn't a good one, Hendo landed almost nothing in round 5 and was mounted for the majority of the round while eating GnP. That round was way more dominant than round 3 where Hendo was on defense for the last 1.5-2 minutes of the round. I myself had round 3 a 10-8 before the last 2 minutes but I thought Shogun having a good submission attempt and then positionally dominating while landing good GnP earned him back a 9, there was no such offense from Hendo in round 5, he just got dominated in grappling and striking on the ground for almost 5 full minutes.

I'm not claiming that Henderson negated Shogun's more dominant position, but arguing that attaining mount 5 times as awesomeness ignores the fact that losing full mount 4 times is not.

I though Shogun might have been killed in the third. Shogun was eating elbows from Hendo when going for an exhausted panic-wrestle TD at around :90, so your claim that Henderson was purely defensive at the end is a subjective assessment, and, like I said, the amount of offense Shogun offered a drop in the bucket compared to what he ate.

I can see the argument, but it's not a much better one than the argument for one each way, or the argument for none for either.
 
I'm not claiming that Henderson negated Shogun's more dominant position, but arguing that attaining mount 5 times as awesomeness ignores the fact that losing full mount 4 times is not.

I though Shogun might have been killed in the third. Shogun was eating elbows from Hendo when going for an exhausted panic-wrestle TD at around :90, so your claim that Henderson was purely defensive at the end is a subjective assessment, and, like I said, the amount of offense Shogun offered a drop in the bucket compared to what he ate.

I can see the argument, but it's not a much better one than the argument for one each way, or the argument for none for either.

You're acting as if these things are equally good for both fighters, and it's not even close, Shogun is still winning even when he's not in mount, he's just not winning by as much, if you are on top you are in the better position in MMA(if you aren't getting hit or threatened with subs) and he was landing strikes as well. Shogun was on top for 4:31 seconds most of which he either had Hendo mounted or was in side control or halfguard all of which are dominant positions over being on bottom like Hendo was.

Shogun landed like 80 strikes to Hendo's 8 in round 5 while also being dominated in grappling, that's a clear 10-8 round when one fighter has almost no offense and/or his opponent outlands him at 10-1 while dominating grappling at the same time. Round 3 wasn't close to as dominant as round 5 was.

I can see the argument for a 10-8 in the third but you should be able to see that round 5 was a far more dominant round than round 3 was, you left out that Shogun had a good submissions attempt in round 3.
 
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You're acting as if these things are equally good for both fighters, and it's not even close, Shogun is still winning even when he's not in mount, he's just not winning by as much, if you are on top you are in the better position in MMA(if you aren't getting hit or threatened with subs) and he was landing strikes as well. Shogun was on top for 4:31 seconds most of which he either had Hendo mounted or was in side control or halfguard all of which are dominant positions over being on bottom like Hendo was.

Shogun landed like 80 strikes to Hendo's 8 in round 5 while also being dominated in grappling, that's a clear 10-8 round when one fighter has almost no offense and/or his opponent outlands him at 10-1 while dominating grappling at the same time. Round 3 wasn't close to as dominant as round 5 was.

I can see the argument for a 10-8 in the third but you should be able to see that round 5 was a far more dominant round than round 3 was, you left out that Shogun had a good submissions attempt in round 3.
If someone is fully mounted, and they get out of full mount, that is a "win" in terms of grappling, for the person getting out of full mount. It's a smaller win than getting mounted, but it's not like it's nothing.

I'm just saying that Shogun fans were delusional enough that this did not occur to them. It's looking like it's entirely possible that you are one of those Shogun fans. They were acting like it was the equivalent of someone who got full mount in each round, but all in a single round. I'm not talking about a "Shogun maintained positional dominance for almost the entire round," but people making a "5X dominance" argument.

You're also making the fight-stat logical fallacy of pretending that all strikes are created equal. Hendo hurt Shogun badly enough that the fight easily could have been stopped in that sequence and no one would have complained that it was a bad stoppage. The two minutes of Shogun trying to run out the round by pressing Hendo into the fence didn't bring him back in that round, he took more serious damage from Henderson's elbows than he gave out during that period.

Shogun rained down 80 soft, tired, listless and weak strikes from mount. He was also exhausted. While salting the round away and piling up points, they weren't particularly damaging.

If putting in any kind of submision attempt is that important for you, the first time Henderson gets out of mount, he put Shogun into a guillotine that wasn't seriously dangerous to Shogun, easily defended, but he had him in it. So, does that guillotine negate the 10-8 dominance? I don't think it did.

The same could be said about Shogun's heel-hook attempt that never had Henderson in any serious danger in Round 3 and was easily defended.

The judges were still adverse to scoring 10-8s back then. In that lens, they scored who won each round correctly. If you aren't adverse to scoring 10-8 rounds, both the third and the fifth are pretty easily 10-8, and the fifth is nowhere close to a 10-7. Shogun wins the round 10-8 by positional dominance throughout the round. Henderson wins 10-8 by having a sequence where he had Shogun hurt so badly that he was nearly finished and it easily could have been stopped, and then by additionally winning the rest of the round outside of that sequence. If you feel that the fifth was more clearly a 10-8, super duper, but being "more 10-8" doesn't mean the other one wasn't 10-8.
 
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Shogun Rua- Dan Henderson: UFC 139 - Draw
Frankie Edgar- Gray Maynard II: UFC 125 - Edgar
Robbie Lawler-Carlos Condit: UFC 195 - Condit
Quinton Jackson-Lyoto Machida: UFC 123 - Jackson
Shogun Rua-Lyoto Machida: UFC 104 - Hua
Couture- Rizzo: UFC 31 - Hizzo
Jones-Reyes: UFC 247 - Heyes
Condit-Diaz: UFC 143 - Diaz
 
Shogun Rua- Dan Henderson: UFC 139
Henderson

Frankie Edgar- Gray Maynard II: UFC 125
Maynard but draw was ok.

Robbie Lawler-Carlos Condit: UFC 195
Condit

Quinton Jackson-Lyoto Machida: UFC 123
Machida but the dec was quite ok imo

Shogun Rua-Lyoto Machida: UFC 104
Shogun

Couture- Rizzo: UFC 31
Hole in my mma history knowledge that I'm yet to fix

Jones-Reyes: UFC 247
Reyes

Condit-Diaz: UFC 143
Diaz
 
Shogun Rua- Dan Henderson: UFC 139
Frankie Edgar- Gray Maynard II: UFC 125
Robbie Lawler-Carlos Condit: UFC 195
Quinton Jackson-Lyoto Machida: UFC 123
Shogun Rua-Lyoto Machida: UFC 104
Couture- Rizzo: UFC 31
Jones-Reyes: UFC 247
Condit-Diaz: UFC 143

For me
Shogun-Henderson: Draw felt about right. Although it was so back and forth it's a little hard to remember

Frankie-Gray: I think I had Gray ahead 3-2 + a 10-8 in the first

Lawler-Condit: Love Robbie but I had Condit ahead 3-2

Jackson-Machida; Bizarre fight: 2-1 Jackson but it was so crazy how little action occured until the 3rd. Thought Rampage took the 1st 2

Rua-Machida 3-2 Shogun but not nearly as big a robbery as was acted like in the past. Close fight

Couture- Rizzo: Couture 3-2 but barely

Jones-Reyes: Felt like Reyes 3-2 was the correct score but Reyes I think maybe could have pushed a bit more to make it more decisive

Condit-Diaz: I love Nick Diaz, but it felt like Condit clearly won 3 rounds. I dunno. I guess it comes down to the 1st round.
Hendo
Draw
Condit
Meh fight sucked so bad I can't remember
Shogun
Couture
Reyes
Condit
 
Bisping won if we’re judging by point karate, Anderson won by every other metric of what one considers a fight.
Bisping gave him a boxing lesson. Other than the knee, Silva got dominated the whole fight. It wasn't even competitive.

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Bisping gave him a boxing lesson. Other than the knee, Silva got dominated the whole fight. It wasn't even competitive.
I could make a long reply to make you look stupid, but there's no need because you're doing it for me.
 
Shogun Rua- Dan Henderson: UFC 139
Frankie Edgar- Gray Maynard II: UFC 125
Robbie Lawler-Carlos Condit: UFC 195
Quinton Jackson-Lyoto Machida: UFC 123
Shogun Rua-Lyoto Machida: UFC 104
Couture- Rizzo: UFC 31
Jones-Reyes: UFC 247
Condit-Diaz: UFC 143


Win
Lose
Draw
Didn't watch
 
A fucking blind death mute could see Condit easily beat Nick Diaz. Diaz’s fans cried the ‘doubt’ into existence.

Easily the most false ‘controversial’ result of all time bar none. Absurd.
 
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