Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by BrainBar, May 17, 2014.
Lol! Too bad this guy was banned. His threads were horrible!
I see your point, but take modern warfare as an example. The US Army is teaching a lot of grappling. So are the Marines. Of course, many of them aren't that good at it. Certainly not as good as a UFC or ADCC competitor.
But, does a year or so of grappling training make that average US Army soldier a better fighter when he squares off with a Taliban terrorist in a living room of a dirt hut in Iraq? If both don't have their weapons on them, or, if they are trying to fight for a better position to get to their weapons?
To me, it almost seems as if some people feel being completely untrained...is superior to having trained in martial arts.
If that was the case, why is the greatest fighting force in the world- the US Marines and the US Army- bringing in Ken Shamrock, the Gracies, Randy Couture, and other guys to teach martial arts techniques to their troops?
American cops also get trained in martial arts. Some karate, some judo, of course some boxing and wrestling. Many also add in some Krav Maga and jiujitsu. And they are using it, and winning most of the time, in "street fights".
A real crazy street fighter with skills and some grappling could win because he might:
manipulation of small joints
Whereas a fighter like Jon Jones would not be doing those things if they got into a tangle (except the eye pokes). Jones probably too big and good for many to beat, but he is trained with rules and has inhibitions, while a 'street fighter' with nothing to live for and doesn't care how he looks on TMZ could go all out and use the aforementioned.
Haha, that's the typical response. The "street fighter" will fight dirty, but the martial artist wont or cant.
The greatest fighting force in the world is so because it has a massive blue water navy and a massive air force, plus seemingly unlimited resources, not because their infrantrymen are good hand to hand combatants.
The army doesnt really cares if you can fight hand to hand or not.
Well, that's in part very true, and takes it to a whole new discussion about hi-tech warfare.
But, why does the Army spend so much time teaching martial arts? They have Army Combatives program, and they even have MMA and grappling tournaments as part of their in-house program. The Marines have the MCMAP- Marine Corp Martial Arts Program, that teaches rear naked chokes, boxing, etc.
So, hypothetically, if 10 Marines and 10 Army infantry squared off, completely unarmed, against 20 random Afghan terrorists- unarmed and untrained in any martial arts- who would you put your money on to win? Our boys or theirs?
Gotta train realistically
The Army/Marines spend little time teaching hand to hand combat. And I don't think anyone was saying no training > training.
Well, I wasn't enlisted in either one, so I cant speak from experience. But, I've seen a lot of videos and articles documenting the Army Combatives program and the USMC Martial Arts Program, and showing them bringing in martial artists to help teach.
Of course they'll spend a lot more time fighting with weapons and tanks and cool shit like that. Another topic all together.
Does anybody know if kali or some of the other weapons based arts are any good? Most street fights involve weapons
Getting off track from my OP.......
Why is it that the elite pro fighters of the world almost ALL come from a martial arts lineage (Boxing, wrestling, judo, BJJ, muay thai, full contact karate) and some of the legendary "street fighters" without formal training, like Kimbo, fail miserably when they square off in professional fighting.
Yet, people assume that "in the street", these untrained, vastly lesser skilled fighters of the street will somehow all of a sudden become such better fighters than those who are training in the very martial arts that are a feeder system to UFC and pro MMA???
Seems the "street training" system has failed miserably at producing elite pro fighters. Bu the martial arts systems have succeeded with obvious dominance.
Yet, those realities somehow disappear when its a fight outside of a ring??
I think they are great for teaching angles and foot position and counter striking, etc. Like the guy I'm arguing with said, some training over no training. I started with street fighting, then moved on to JKD and Kali. I liked both for street fighting before grappling was popular.
Actually, MOST don't.
For every fight that has a person pull a knife or a gun....there are a 1,000 others that are just two idiots slugging it out a bit.
"Most" street fights don't involve weapons. Only the ones that end up with a story on Page 1 of the newspaper or a video on Spike TV do.
Discipline is your answer.
Those two arts teach striking with your hands the exact same way as wih a weapon.
Edit! My bad I didn't realize he meant weapons.
Hypothetically? none, they all lose as a meteorite crashes down to earth freeing a massive demon from its ancient prison which marks the end of the world.
The combatives were not created to asses any particular deficiency or combat need, neither was it created by someone with battle experience in such ordeals.
Its just something to teach aggression and the time spent training it doesnt makes the soldier much more deadly than your random stranger.
Um, its not that these realities disappear is just that others come into scene.
And these realities make it in a way that most of the things you learn in martial arts is unwise to use, most of the times.
I've been in many "street fights" but this means different things to everybody. Most people are talking about an MMA fight that happens in the street. I've done ok in those too but I usually end up getting attacked by his friends. I've managed to stay on my feet in those situations.
Most of them involved me attacking an enemy alone while they were not looking or while they were talking shit, as an adult I fought a lot in stores over an insult. I never showed emotion or telegraph my strike
My go to move was/is a jab to the nose that came from the hip and snap out maybe the last 3 inches. If I think the cross will land I'd just knock him out cold as soon as he gets in range.
Once he was stunned from the jab I'd land a cross, throw him on the ground and kick him until his bones were broken. Injuries resemble a car crash, broken skull, eye sockets, arms, legs, noses, etc.
Now you can be a great fighter in great shape, but you can still lose this way. Some of the people I put in the hospital would have beat me in a fair fight and they were all down and taking stomps to the head inside 5 seconds.
People say "my cardio..., I got great boxing, streetfighters leave themselves open", it doesn't happen like that. It's more about street smarts and hitting first and HARD.
But that said, I wouldn't want to fight anyone at my gym. If I had no choice I'd use weapon when they didn't expect it but then again...you get the point.
That is street fighting so yeah most mma guys would die in a bad neighborhood. They'd try to square off and spar, he might win that day but next day they'd catch him alone and stab him. Not for lack of fighting but lack of knowing when to lay low or shut your mouth. Win today, die tomorrow.
Bare handed fighting is a joke for the street against gangs, you want a baton or a bat/gun and catch them alone or from behind. Basically pick them off one by one and stay away from their numbers until they want to be your friend rather than your enemy.
Now does learning a martial art help with THAT? Sure, a little.
This thread has "JUMPED THE SHARK" and I'm ashamed I have been in here as long as I have.........
Yeah their grappling is shit...a good white belt would whoop them.
MCMAP is shit...but then it's not supposed to be anything great.
They want to get the soldier's courage up so he'll fight and maybe have some useable skill. They can let off some steam MMA style and measure their dicks without killing each other.
Cops have a badge and a radio and a gun. That is why they win, most of them can't shoot or fight or run. Take away that cops badge and radio and I'll arrest him.
Soldiers win becuase they have M4 rifles, high tech weapons and 30 other guys and the Taleban are shit soldiers.
Probably the closest thing to H2H that matters to any solder these days is bayonet and that is basically a bunch of guys charging, again, if one of them dies it's no big deal.
Plenty of bodies.
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