which single muscle is most resposible for punching speed?

Everything starts from the hips.

this sounds like a response a TMA instructor drilled into you. Natural human punches don't have to come from the hip. Even in boxing, alot of punches (even the jab) don't come from the hip at all. They derive power from the legs, but even that has nothing to do with their speed which is what the TS is asking. Only with their force
 
this sounds like a response a TMA instructor drilled into you. Natural human punches don't have to come from the hip. Even in boxing, alot of punches (even the jab) don't come from the hip at all. They derive power from the legs, but even that has nothing to do with their speed which is what the TS is asking. Only with their force

Every punch derives power from the hips, and that most definitely includes the jab! (or at least it should). I agree that punches derive power from the legs, but the hips/core are the mechanism that transfers power from the legs to the shoulders, and correspondingly to the punch itself. In short, if your using your legs in generating power, the only way that power moves from the ground up is through the core (which includes the hips).

It seems that there is this misconception that speed comes from the smaller muscles that play a much less significant role in a punch. Such as, the triceps, which really play a very insignificant role in the motion. If anything, the shoulders would play a far more significant role in punching mechanics than would the triceps!

We seem to be in agreement (throughout the forum) that the legs, hips, core are responsible for generating power. Why?.... because they are responsible for the overwhelming majority of the punching mechanics. Using that same assumption, why would anyone not agree that these same muscles are the ones that are the most responsible for developing speed. If ultimately, these muscles dictate 80% or more of the mechanics/motion in a punch, then i would say they also are the most important for developing speed as well as power. Speed and power are both derived from the same muscles, what makes a punch faster is those same muscles reacting more explosively...... I.E: Faster!
 
Don't forget about the Latissimus dorsi muscle. Plays a significant role in arm movement.
 
Every punch derives power from the hips, and that most definitely includes the jab! (or at least it should). I agree that punches derive power from the legs, but the hips/core are the mechanism that transfers power from the legs to the shoulders, and correspondingly to the punch itself. In short, if your using your legs in generating power, the only way that power moves from the ground up is through the core (which includes the hips).

It seems that there is this misconception that speed comes from the smaller muscles that play a much less significant role in a punch. Such as, the triceps, which really play a very insignificant role in the motion. If anything, the shoulders would play a far more significant role in punching mechanics than would the triceps!

We seem to be in agreement (throughout the forum) that the legs, hips, core are responsible for generating power. Why?.... because they are responsible for the overwhelming majority of the punching mechanics. Using that same assumption, why would anyone not agree that these same muscles are the ones that are the most responsible for developing speed. If ultimately, these muscles dictate 80% or more of the mechanics/motion in a punch, then i would say they also are the most important for developing speed as well as power. Speed and power are both derived from the same muscles, what makes a punch faster is those same muscles reacting more explosively...... I.E: Faster!

Pretty much all there is to it. The legs, hips,and core are more responsible for speed than any of the other muscles. I said in my other post, everything else (chest, back, triceps) is an accelerator. They push you from 5mph to 6mph to 8mph. But they don't matter if your starting speed is crap.

It's why arm punches are so weak. The shoulder and tricep are accelerating the punch from 0 mph to 5 mph. But if you started with proper mechanics, you'd already be at 7-8mph before your shoulder and tricep got involed and they would still add their accelerating effect. The end speed increase would be greater than 5mph the arm generated from standstill.

Speed follows the same path through the body as power and that means it starts with your base.

*Please don't get fixated on the numbers, it's the principle that I'm trying to explain (albeit possibly poorly:)).
 
It's not a matter of which muscle that moves, it is a matter of the muscles that should be relaxed, so that they don't create antagonistic tension
 
majority of this thread: "I SAW FIGHT SCIENCE ON NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SO INSTEAD OF ADDRESSING THE QUESTION ILL PARROT WHAT THEY SAID"

seriously, did you guys even read what he said?
 
Every punch derives power from the hips, and that most definitely includes the jab! (or at least it should). I agree that punches derive power from the legs, but the hips/core are the mechanism that transfers power from the legs to the shoulders, and correspondingly to the punch itself. In short, if your using your legs in generating power, the only way that power moves from the ground up is through the core (which includes the hips).

It seems that there is this misconception that speed comes from the smaller muscles that play a much less significant role in a punch. Such as, the triceps, which really play a very insignificant role in the motion. If anything, the shoulders would play a far more significant role in punching mechanics than would the triceps!

We seem to be in agreement (throughout the forum) that the legs, hips, core are responsible for generating power. Why?.... because they are responsible for the overwhelming majority of the punching mechanics. Using that same assumption, why would anyone not agree that these same muscles are the ones that are the most responsible for developing speed. If ultimately, these muscles dictate 80% or more of the mechanics/motion in a punch, then i would say they also are the most important for developing speed as well as power. Speed and power are both derived from the same muscles, what makes a punch faster is those same muscles reacting more explosively...... I.E: Faster!

Don't pay steelhammer any mind, he's just a tool :icon_lol:
 
It's not a matter of which muscle that moves, it is a matter of the muscles that should be relaxed, so that they don't create antagonistic tension

There are some muscles you need engaged to do something effectively.

Still, this is a good nugget of advice so I'll quote it for emphasis.
 
this sounds like a response a TMA instructor drilled into you. Natural human punches don't have to come from the hip. Even in boxing, alot of punches (even the jab) don't come from the hip at all. They derive power from the legs, but even that has nothing to do with their speed which is what the TS is asking. Only with their force

Yes, but the issue is that the thread started asked an overly broad, and answerless question. The problem is that no one muscle is used to punch. If I locked my elbow in place and punched with my legs and core, it wouldn't be that effective. Conversely, if I just threw an arm punch, that wouldn't be effective. A good punch comes from the coordination of a number of muscles across multiple joints, and I don't think you can say one is more important than the next (although certain ones may be more so than others).
 
Don't forget about the Latissimus dorsi muscle. Plays a significant role in arm movement.

Well said! This mans speaks knowledge!

The lats are often overlooked. Just like doing a bench press, flexing the lats propels the arms up/forward....... same principle applies to a punch! It is not easy to conceptualize the fact that a punch, even though it is thrown with the arm, has really very little to do with the muscles in the arm........ The arm being thrown forward is merely the bi-product of the larger muscles in the body creating a movement thats end results is the arm being thrown out there...... really, if your body goes through the proper mechanics of throwing a punch it is far more difficult to stop the arm from being flung out there than it is to do otherwise.


Yes, but the issue is that the thread started asked an overly broad, and answerless question. The problem is that no one muscle is used to punch. If I locked my elbow in place and punched with my legs and core, it wouldn't be that effective. Conversely, if I just threw an arm punch, that wouldn't be effective. A good punch comes from the coordination of a number of muscles across multiple joints, and I don't think you can say one is more important than the next (although certain ones may be more so than others).

Well put!

It is like trying to ask what 1 muscle is the most important in throwing a 100mph fastball, or in an NFL QB throwing a pass that tattoos a receiver in the middle of his chest from 40yds out....... no one muscle is ultimately responsible, without all of them working together in synchronized motion it is not possible.
 
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I don't mean to be a dick, but the lats actually do the exact opposite. They extend (if your arm is out in front of you, they will pull the arm to your side) and horizontally abduct (if your arm is out in front of you, they will pull them back behind you in a path parallel to the floor).

Latissimus dorsi muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I def. feel the lats work when I punch. That may be because they are internal rotators (you rotate right before contact), or they are engaged to prevent you from damaging joint via antagonistic support.
 
I don't mean to be a dick, but the lats actually do the exact opposite. They extend (if your arm is out in front of you, they will pull the arm to your side) and horizontally abduct (if your arm is out in front of you, they will pull them back behind you in a path parallel to the floor).

Latissimus dorsi muscle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I def. feel the lats work when I punch. That may be because they are internal rotators (you rotate right before contact), or they are engaged to prevent you from damaging joint via antagonistic support.

That is cool info! My response in saying "the lats assist in pushing the arm forward" is with respect to the lats pressing the elbow out, or propelling it forward. For example, sit in a relaxed position holding your arm in close to your side (or lat), then add a 90degree bend in your arm so your fist is pointing forward, in front of you..... now flex your lat on that side of your body, your hand moves forward, eh?
 
Yes, but the issue is that the thread started asked an overly broad, and answerless question. The problem is that no one muscle is used to punch. If I locked my elbow in place and punched with my legs and core, it wouldn't be that effective. Conversely, if I just threw an arm punch, that wouldn't be effective. A good punch comes from the coordination of a number of muscles across multiple joints, and I don't think you can say one is more important than the next (although certain ones may be more so than others).

I take it your hooks and uppercuts are pretty slow.

The end of a whip breaks the sound barrier, I guess the speed must come from the power in the tip of the whip, right?
 
The lats are tightened to help connect your movements. The muscle goes down towards your hips, and if you are using the right hip muscles as well, they should feel like one large muscle connected together. The hips connect the muscles in your butt, which are connected to your leg, which is connected to the foot, which is connected to the earth. All of that adds up to give your punch more power.
 
I take it your hooks and uppercuts are pretty slow.

The end of a whip breaks the sound barrier, I guess the speed must come from the power in the tip of the whip, right?

Are you saying a punch should be reliant on the legs or the arms? I'm not sure what you are implying. Are you saying that the important part is the base where the force is applied to the whip? Or are you saying the arms are important because like a whip, this is the part that moves the fastest?

Also, a whip breaks the speed barrier but will only cut me. A baseball bat can only be swung slowly but will break a skull. And with humans, the FPV curve states that as a movement becomes faster, it loses Force. The optimal speed for a powerful movement isn't always that fast. While your initial punches should be fast to land against your opponent, the "knockout punches" are generally slower for this reason.
 
Upon thinking about it more, I think you guys may not be talking about the Lats. The lats connect the lower back to the front part of the arm. Since the back is more massive, contracting the lats will rotate the arm inward (like how a fist is rotated during punching). The lats will also pull the arm up and behind the body (extenssion and horizontal abduction).

Contracting the lats to turn or stabilize the torso like spinebreaker described, will actually take the arm away from its target. For example, contracting the right lat will pull my right side behind my body. Think of a string going from your lower back, passing under your armpit to the front of your shoulder connecting to the arm, this is your latissimus dorsi. Shorten the string and either the arm is pulled back, or if the shoulder is kept stiff, the arm is pulled back. The obliques are the muscles best used to turn the torso during a punch.

However, there are a group of muscles (the rotator cuff muscles) which play an essential role in punching and may be the muscles that get sore and are confused by many of you for the lats. These muscles are located in the same area as the lats Rotator cuff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . These muscles are important for moving and stabiling the shoulder blade, and thus the arm. In a punch, these muscles will contract before and with the deltoids to give the arm more reach, and power. This is because the humerus (arm bone) is socketed into the acromyum process in the shoulder blade. The shoulderblade moves across the back via contractions of the rotator cuff, to give the shoulder a greater range of motion.
 
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