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Which one should be focused on first?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Calibur, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    You gotta choose one.

    A) Standing guard passes, ie: the bullfighter pass.

    B) Kneeling guard passes, ie: the double underhook guard pass.


    The pros for A is you can do it at any weight level to any weight level and be successful with it on just about anyone very soon. Very rewarding for n00bs. The cons are it leaves people (I've seen upper belts so lost without pant grips that they quit nogi after a couple of days) dependent on gi pants. Also, a sense of pressure and base isn't developed as quickly.

    The pros for B is if you are average size and you can use it well you can not only break down many submission attempts, but you can also secure pins and transition very easily because by the time you have semi-mastery you understand weight placement. The cons are it is very difficult to use on someone who is clearly better, or much heavier without a lot of practice, and you a mistake can get you subbed if your opponent is savy.



    If you are teaching, or if you are learning which one do you focus on. You have to choose one and only one and can't choose a combination of the two. Kneeslide passes count as kneeling passes.

    For the record, I pretty much Tozi pass everyone, so technically I use neither now.
     
  2. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    knee in tailbone, step over guardpass with pinning the hips
     
  3. 3dsmax

    3dsmax Orange Belt

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    Are we talking about opening closed guard or passing open guard? I stand up to open and pass while standing from that point on.....

    I pretty much always stand and can not imagine myself passing while kneeling at this point. Standing guard passes allow for a lot more mobility and transitions. One of our black belts is absolutely deadly with them and doesn't rely on pant grips nearly as much as most people. He uses his whole body and in particular his legs and hips to neutralize hooks. It's a very non-traditional style of passing and one that I'm trying to work on myself.
     
  4. Calibur

    Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

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    Both.
     
  5. MUFC

    MUFC Brown Belt

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    Of the two, I feel the double underhooks develops/introduces some very important concepts in guard passing and maintaining top position. Of course, not all students will make the connection and apply the concepts to other passes/positions.
     
  6. armtriangle

    armtriangle Brown Belt

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    I think the passes on the knees should be learned first (and that is all I use still today). The classic underleg pass is still my go to. I used to get triangled a lot, but rather than abandon the pass, i just worked on passing with my posture right and using the other arm to defend. The result is that I have a very high percentage guard pass combination.

    The issue with the standing passes is that there are so many more variable to control. Will the guard guy stand? Maybe DLR? Maybe spider? Mayebe he will just come up with me? And I find it more tiring. Add in to that, you really only have 2 points of base (your two feet)... kneeling passes you have 2 knees, 2 feet and your hands.

    That said, you should practice both. I just think the kneeling passes should be learned first. I do occasionally stand to break, but as soon as I break, I go back down to pass. Obviously high level guys do both, so it is just my preference.
     
  7. nerraw

    nerraw White Belt

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    I'd go with B, kneeling. A works better for quicker guys. You can develop technique and weight placement, but getting faster isn't so easy.
     
  8. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    I prefer stand up guard pass.

    However, in my academy, knee guard pass is the first techniques taught.

    knee guard passes are for newbies and f*gs.
     
  9. nerraw

    nerraw White Belt

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    I'd go with B, kneeling. A works better for quicker guys. You can develop technique and weight placement, but getting faster isn't so easy.
     

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