Which knuckles to punch with?

[AndyMaBobs]

You're advocating the two knuckle punch with a wrist 'arc' slightly. Maybe how you were taught and works for you but I don't agree it is optimal.

In fact your vid points out this,that if you punch with the big two knuckles and the wrist is straight there is no natural support.

The bottom three knuckle landing is most naturally aligned with the wrist straight.

View attachment 837512

https://newschoolsinger.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/jack-dempsey-championship-fighting-1.pdf

I find it amusing that Mister Opera uploaded that book, for no reason other than that I know that guy by coincidence.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

just in case anyone interested in learning technique clicks this thread

@Sinister 's way is the best way IMO, it's how I've punched ever since I first learned that approach and I've not encountered a single other way that came close for me

Your center knuckle at a obtuse 45 degree angle squared.

Y'see you make this joke a lot but what knuckles you land the punch on actually does matter. I do think it's weird though how many schools of thought there are on it, especially seeing as they're basically all wrong

 

[shincheckin]

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@Sinister 's way is the best way IMO, it's how I've punched ever since I first learned that approach and I've not encountered a single other way that came close for me



Y'see you make this joke a lot but what knuckles you land the punch on actually does matter. I do think it's weird though how many schools of thought there are on it, especially seeing as they're basically all wrong

Yeah right and wrong way to punch. I just think it's a bit too technical. I have always just aimed with my fist. I guess the middle of my fist to be specific which would fall into the middle knuckle. I find it odd that people think they are going to be concerned with what knuckle to use during a fight. Like oh man that cross I just landed was no good because I used my first knuckle instead of my middle. Which was extremely easy to feel/tell beneath my gloved, taped, wrapped hand. Lol.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I


Yeah right and wrong way to punch. I just think it's a bit too technical. I have always just aimed with my fist. I guess the middle of my fist to be specific which would fall into the middle knuckle. I find it odd that people think they are going to be concerned with what knuckle to use during a fight. Like oh man that cross I just landed was no good because I used my first knuckle instead of my middle. Which was extremely easy to feel/tell beneath my gloved, taped, wrapped hand. Lol.

I think people are thinking that you AIM with two specific knuckles rather than punch with a fist formation that means those specific knuckles land

 

[shincheckin]

I think people are thinking that you AIM with two specific knuckles rather than punch with a fist formation that means those specific knuckles land

Yeah, it's like what part of the shin do I kick with....the middle, but that ain't always going to happen.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yeah, it's like what part of the shin do I kick with....the middle, but that ain't always going to happen.

Yeah, I think at a poitn you've just gotta aim for consistency, not perfection - if I consistently land with my shin - then that's better than landing with my foot, even if its not the ideal part of the shin

 

[shincheckin]

Yeah, I think at a poitn you've just gotta aim for consistency, not perfection - if I consistently land with my shin - then that's better than landing with my foot, even if its not the ideal part of the shin

Exactly spot on, that's my view towards this whole knuckle thing.I have never been concerned about what knuckle lands in a fight. I have been concerned to land with my shin and not my foot during fights, but shit happens. With gloves I think it's pretty much impossible to even tell what knuckle(s) landed. But very easy to tell when you get that middle shin solid connection vs hitting with your foot.

 

[TheMaster]

Yeah right and wrong way to punch. I just think it's a bit too technical. I have always just aimed with my fist. I guess the middle of my fist to be specific which would fall into the middle knuckle. I find it odd that people think they are going to be concerned with what knuckle to use during a fight. Like oh man that cross I just landed was no good because I used my first knuckle instead of my middle. Which was extremely easy to feel/tell beneath my gloved, taped, wrapped hand. Lol.

Definitely more of an issue if you're thinking about punching bare knuckle.
Alot of this debate really stems from that.

 

[shincheckin]

Definitely more of an issue if you're thinking about punching bare knuckle.
Alot of this debate really stems from that.

I agree, I didn't want to be a douche and mention for "teh streetz" but it was never a concern during any of the bareknuckle fights I have been in either. I guess at the end of the day it just falls under correct punching technique, as what knuckle your hitting with isn't a thought or concern during a bk fight either. I have broken my thumb a few times. And also fractured my scaphoid, but shit happens. I would equate it to a foot injury from a kick which I have done also. Worst was a grade iii turf toe injury. I basically bent my large toe backwards and broke it at large joint at the ball of your foot.

 

[Sinister]

When you understand the frequency and reason for hand breaks in fighting, what knuckles land become very important. Listen to this:

 

[TheMaster]

When you understand the frequency and reason for hand breaks in fighting, what knuckles land become very important. Listen to this:

Gotta love his Dempsey t-shirt as well

 

[TheMaster]

I find it amusing that Mister Opera uploaded that book, for no reason other than that I know that guy by coincidence.

Yeah, I admit that I use the shoulder whirl as Dempsey describes in my punches which is why I tend to wind people sometimes in light sparring.
Now, you may accuse me of doing a WC/old school boxing hybrid but I don't see it that way.

The same mechanics are also taught in Wing Chun to pull back the opposing arm and shoulder back as the next punch is launched to increase power, and I have met other WC practicioners who are fans of Dempsey's descriptions of the method. Similar mechanism to how in Karate they pullback the opposite arm as the punch is thrown. These are all variations of the shoulder whirl.
I see no contradiction as it simply increases the power from the tendon driven straight punches.

It does become clear however from punching the wall bag even though I have not done competitive full contact fights, that the power generated is so much that the hand and wrist can get hurt on impact which is why this issue is important.

I also feel that strategically, this is why you cant play the 'boxing lottery' game from outside in BK as much, as you want to have more precision in where your punch lands and avoid someone ducking and your hand hitting the top of their head or them using an elbow block.
Being a bit closer and controlling their posture or launching off a parry can give this added precision, at least in theory .

Anyway, one of my fav martial arts books of all time for sure.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yeah, I admit that I use the shoulder whirl as Dempsey describes in my punches which is why I tend to wind people sometimes in light sparring.
Now, you may accuse me of doing a WC/old school boxing hybrid but I don't see it that way.

The same mechanics are also taught in Wing Chun to pull back the opposing arm and shoulder back as the next punch is launched to increase power, and I have met other WC practicioners who are fans of Dempsey's descriptions of the method. Similar mechanism to how in Karate they pullback the opposite arm as the punch is thrown. These are all variations of the shoulder whirl.
I see no contradiction as it simply increases the power from the tendon driven straight punches.

It does become clear however from punching the wall bag even though I have not done competitive full contact fights, that the power generated is so much that the hand and wrist can get hurt on impact which is why this issue is important.

I also feel that strategically, this is why you cant play the 'boxing lottery' game from outside in BK as much, as you want to have more precision in where your punch lands and avoid someone ducking and your hand hitting the top of their head or them using an elbow block.
Being a bit closer and controlling their posture or launching off a parry can give this added precision, at least in theory .

Anyway, one of my fav martial arts books of all time for sure.

I don't really have an issue with the WC method for generating power, even if its not optimal - it's better than what most people do which is just swing athletically. I like the shoulder whirl too, though I like it more as a demonstration for HOW to get your body moving right, than going that full rotation for the punch itself, which I think can be a bit much - good stuff tho



This is a drill I get people to do too, good for keeping the punch straight and getting the shoulders engaged

 

[TheMaster]

I don't really have an issue with the WC method for generating power, even if its not optimal - it's better than what most people do which is just swing athletically. I like the shoulder whirl too, though I like it more as a demonstration for HOW to get your body moving right, than going that full rotation for the punch itself, which I think can be a bit much - good stuff tho



This is a drill I get people to do too, good for keeping the punch straight and getting the shoulders engaged

The way they were standing in that drill, I thought it was a wc demo at first.
I take it you think the shoulder whirl makes things too telegraphed or slows the launching of the punch down too much in application.

 

[Woldog]

I


Yeah right and wrong way to punch. I just think it's a bit too technical. I have always just aimed with my fist. I guess the middle of my fist to be specific which would fall into the middle knuckle. I find it odd that people think they are going to be concerned with what knuckle to use during a fight. Like oh man that cross I just landed was no good because I used my first knuckle instead of my middle. Which was extremely easy to feel/tell beneath my gloved, taped, wrapped hand. Lol.

Agreed, people seem to overthink a lot of things in fighting lol.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

The way they were standing in that drill, I thought it was a wc demo at first.
I take it you think the shoulder whirl makes things too telegraphed or slows the launching of the punch down too much in application.

It's modern shaolin, so it could be influenced by WC

For me it's less about telegraphing or speed, and more about over-commitment and shoulder stability - I'd rather a beginner have a big over commitment at first. Say for example their lead hook, they turn their upperbody as far as they possibly can with the hook, to get the idea down, but I don't want them to actually throw it like that forever - I like it more as a principle to get all the body moving as one, but to eventually put it into a more minimalist movement.



For me, I'd also never want someone doing those shoulder whirls unless they are also doing side planks to strengthen and maintain their shoulders.

I want the shoulders to rotate, as in the same way an action man rotates, but I don't want the actual shoulder JOINT to do much rotating, I think that's where I differ with Dempsey

 

[TheMaster]

It's modern shaolin, so it could be influenced by WC

For me it's less about telegraphing or speed, and more about over-commitment and shoulder stability - I'd rather a beginner have a big over commitment at first. Say for example their lead hook, they turn their upperbody as far as they possibly can with the hook, to get the idea down, but I don't want them to actually throw it like that forever - I like it more as a principle to get all the body moving as one, but to eventually put it into a more minimalist movement.



For me, I'd also never want someone doing those shoulder whirls unless they are also doing side planks to strengthen and maintain their shoulders.

I want the shoulders to rotate, as in the same way an action man rotates, but I don't want the actual shoulder JOINT to do much rotating, I think that's where I differ with Dempsey

You seem fond of referencing that tiny girl alot. I get that she trains with experts in MT but I just find it amusing.

As for the shoulder whirls, Dempsey was all about power.
Doing planks or whatever may be necessary for some I have never noticed any issues with them though and I don't think he comments on this in the book.

He advocates for all of these methods to be gross to begin with then gradually minimize the unnecessary motion as it becomes more efficient.

Another thing he was absolutely right about was the power line running through the middle of the shoulder to the last knuckle.

What do you make of the falling/trigger step.
Again something to be made more refined with time. It adds a lot of power and again has interesting parrallels in WC where the rear foot is sometimes taught with almost 100 weight then the forward leg shunts forward and the back weighted leg steps with the punch landing at or just before the foot lands which is a falling step and another element of how big power can be generated from close with a short range punch .
In Dempseys version the weight is almost fully on the front leg when it jerks forward with the punch landing just before or at the time the foot lands.

I imagine it is the opposite of a more defence focussed style being light on the feet without sitting down on the punches or stepping with full weight landing on impact as in the trigger step.

 

[Zanderlini]

Guys overthink shit all the time. If you punch hard you have to take care of your hands. This could mean going easy on the heavybag every once in awhile, and waiting for your hands and wrists to condition before blasting the bag. Purchasing better gloves, wrapping your hands correctly etc.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You seem fond of referencing that tiny girl alot. I get that she trains with experts in MT but I just find it amusing.

Also has 250+ fights that unlike most Thais are all verified, best resource for Muay Thai technique online + there isn't a close second. On the actual video, Sagat is what I find to be optimal, he was THE power puncher back in the day but his shots were always hard to see coming and he wasn't twisting arms in weird ways that will cause injury

As for the shoulder whirls, Dempsey was all about power.
Doing planks or whatever may be necessary for some I have never noticed any issues with them though and I don't think he comments on this in the book.

He advocates for all of these methods to be gross to begin with then gradually minimize the unnecessary motion as it becomes more efficient.

Another thing he was absolutely right about was the power line running through the middle of the shoulder to the last knuckle.

What do you make of the falling/trigger step.
Again something to be made more refined with time. It adds a lot of power and again has interesting parrallels in WC where the rear foot is sometimes taught with almost 100 weight then the forward leg shunts forward and the back weighted leg steps with the punch landing at or just before the foot lands which is a falling step and another element of how big power can be generated from close with a short range punch .
In Dempseys version the weight is almost fully on the front leg when it jerks forward with the punch landing just before or at the time the foot lands.

I imagine it is the opposite of a more defence focussed style without sitting down on the punches or stepping with full weight landing on impact.

So, I like when I see Dempsey do the falling step, and every other person I've seen try it looks whack. I've seen people take Dempsey WAY too literally and think that its something he did all the time on every punch, but they don't compete in the same sport as Dempsey and they don't really know what he's explaining when they try to do it. I guess that'll happen without a video of him actually explaining and demonstrating it though. Like you say, he says make them really overdone to begin with and more minimal in time but that doesn't seem to reach the YouTubers who are just staggering all of the place

Tbh, most of his ideas I think are fine when it comes to generating power and the like, he wasn't really advocating for any silly shit. I prefer for punching mechanics the USSR approach that had a strong amount of research surrounding it for what was and wasn't optimal technique.



I like this method of using a broom stick to line up the body in the best way for a punch.

Another old school guy who's ideas I like, and honestly I think who's ideas stuck around the longest is Bob Fitzsimmons - obviously I only found out about him through the internet, but his ideas on shifting are still around today + I've personally incorporated them into my style and teaching.

 

[shinkyoku]

oops, replied to the wrong thread.