Where does the myth of the heavyweight division becoming worst comes from?

[Sarge3000]

HW division in any fighting sport will always be most exciting, I don't care what M-Fers say.
Its just not the same watching Calvin Klein models fight each other.

 

[DayV]

All these guy's ground game would be much less effective against the current crop of HW. Nog and Overreem's ground game almost did nothing for them in the UFC.

The only pride fighter who had good success with his ground game in the ufc was Werdum who is by far the most decorated HW grappler of the pride era but he wasn't even in his prime in that organisation.

Everyone's grappling looked better in pride just because of the extremely low average sub defense skillset in the division.

For submisson offence oriented game you need different ruleset than UFC.

You need ring, not cage, no fence.
You need restarts in the middle with no obstacles to block transitions and body movement.
You need 10 minute round.
You need to bann elbows. No elbow strikes.
Technical experts with high judo and BJJ skills need to have an option for GI kimono allowed.

Put current top UFC fighters in PRIDE rules, and you will find that their submission defence is not that good, and that submission game is effective.

The big part of secret why likes of Noguiera were so successful was in different ruleset and environment that was much better for submission game.

 

[Psychojoe86]

Right off the bat, you said cro cop had terrible takedown defense? Dude go back and rewatch his fights or something lol

 

[moreorless87]

I don't believe Pride HWs were the best of all time but they had great packaging and promotion. It made the guys seem larger than life. Technically the majority of Pride guys weren't that good. In that era, people used to jerk off to fighters throwing a headkick or lowkick. A lot of stuff is standard now.

Honestly I believe the UFC is vastly more focused on the hard sell than Pride ever was, the latter had some big stadium shows but relatively little in the way of spiel which the UFC has always depended massively on. Everything is kept in house, real analsysi doesn't exist only marketing dressed up as analysis.

The result is a lot of the fanbase of MMA today really have no understanding of the sport at all, they just know the hype they've been fed. Almost anything could be sold to them as a great example of MMA and they've buy it as true, two aging out of sharp HW's throwing sloppy punchs and gassing inside of 5 mins? thats great evolved MMA, the man on the TV said so.

 

[AP_RESURRECTION]

Respectfully disagree. In no other division can you see the abundance of one dimensional fighters, guys with zero grappling/wrestling or rudimentary games there, and tons of sloppy technique.

I think guys don't go up for legit reasons. One being not everyone has the frame to be relatively lean at ~240 lbs which is the weight of "smaller HWs" such as Stipe, JDS, Cain, etc. Another being the randomness of being KO'd by a giant brawler who might have brute power at ~240-265 lbs, and as someone mentioned having to grapple/wrestle a guy who's cutting to 265 or walks around lean at ~255 like Ngannou (even though he's a prime example of HW having less skill because he was a novice grappler).

Right so I guess the difference is that the hw fighters may have fewer skills in many scenarios. Not necessarily though when you look at guys like Overeem DC Stipe old jds etc

but let’s say many fighters are less skilled overall. That is likely true. However they are still very difficult to beat given the power.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Thats not true. Nowadays everyone's well roundedness is less noticeable due to everyone being well rounded. The TD defense in today's HW division is years ahead of what it was in pride. Same for the sub defense. Pride nuthuggers are just blind and live in the past.

There are almost no wrestlers or sub grapplers at HW. TDD and submission defense isnt any better there is juat almost no one to test their defense.

 

[NoSmilez]

There are almost no wrestlers or sub grapplers at HW. TDD and submission defense isnt any better there is juat almost no one to test their defense.

Stipe, DC, Blaydes, Oleinik, Shamil, Blagoy, Werdum. These guys can also somewhat strike in addition to their main craft. Who did you have in Pride that fought together in the same time frame that wasn't one dimensional grapplers or wrestlers?

 

[NoSmilez]

You can shit on Derrick Lewis but how many heavyweights can throw a lead leg switch kick as fast as him? How many HWs in Pride knew how to use their hips or even shrimp to get up from the ground?

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Stipe, DC, Blaydes, Oleinik, Shamil, Blagoy, Werdum. These guys can also somewhat strike in addition to their main craft. Who did you have in Pride that fought together in the same time frame that wasn't one dimensional grapplers or wrestlers?

Sergei, Big Nog, Fedor, Barnett, Overeem, Schlit, Herring, Aleksander E, even Werdum still had above average striking defense, though his offense wasn't nearly as good as it later was under Cordeiro also Cro Cop was even a submission threat.

 

[Local Plata]

History.

 

[Poatan Power]

All you have to do is look at the technical prowess.

It also isn't unique. Heavyweights in wrestling, kickboxing, boxing, etc. are historically less "technical" than lighter weight divisions and slower since they're bigger. Thai guys think anyone over 6' is goofy and clumsy in comparison to the 5'9"-5'11" slaughterhouse of competitors.

 

[r-harper-1]

Ts is on crack

 

[ThunderStruck]

There are almost no wrestlers or sub grapplers at HW. TDD and submission defense isnt any better there is juat almost no one to test their defense.

Welp i guess that the emergence of mma gyms is a myth and they don't teach anything in there

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Welp i guess that the emergence of mma gyms is a myth and they don't teach anything in there

Derick Lewis is a top 5ish HW that told his own trainers he doesn't know how to take people down. Outside of DC, Stipe and Ngannou the HW division isn't very well rounded and most of the HWs that are, are years passed their best.

 

[ThunderStruck]

Derick Lewis is a top 5ish HW that told his own trainers he doesn't know how to take people down. Outside of DC, Stipe and Ngannou the HW division isn't very well rounded and most of the HWs that are, are years passed their best.

Offensive wrestling/subs i give you that. But the average TDD and sub defense is much higher than what it used to be.

 

[NoSmilez]

Sergei, Big Nog, Fedor, Barnett, Overeem, Schlit, Herring, Aleksander E, even Werdum still had above average striking defense, though his offense wasn't nearly as good as it later was under Cordeiro also Cro Cop was even a submission threat.

You are using guys that were later in the UFC and bulk of them couldn't submit anything in the UFC. Some of them were even in the UFC before Pride and subbing each other. I can remember only Werdum and Nog submitting someone in the UFC . I don't remember Alistar's "legendary" European ADCC guillotine being of any use in the UFC.
You are calling these guys submission and wrestling experts. They can't even recreate the spark against "bums" in the UFC. Come on you are even saying Cro Cop is a submission threat. Maybe against Pat Barry