Where does the myth of the heavyweight division becoming worst comes from?

People are saying the Pride HW division was great simply by comparing it with the FAR inferior UFCHW division at the time. And now you are comparing a 10+ old division with today? Does that mean that today’s LHW division rules over the old LHW division with cans like Iceman, Rampage, Shogun? Does it mean that the LW division used to suck because BJ can’t beat an elite fighter today? Or that MW division always sucked because now we have Romero who can’t make weight, cheats and loses title fights consistently?

If you look at today’s HW division, a lot of them are older fighters that remain relevant while in all other divisions, a new breed of elite fighters have taken over. When someone like Black Beast somehow is relevant in top 5 discussions you know that the division sucks.
 
It's not a myth-- the top weight class of any combat sport always has the shallowest talent pool and thereby makes it easier on average to advance to the top.
 
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Clearly you think Fedor is an all-time great. I don't necessarily think otherwise, but I question it.

First of all you are counting aggregate "wins". Why is that some amazing stat?

Okay then is Donald Cerrone an all-time great? He has 23 wins in the UFC. That's the most all-time. Maia has the 2nd most, and Jim Miller is tied for 3rd most with Bisping and GSP. Jon Jones is 4th and Diego Sanchez is one of the guys tied for 5th most wins in the UFC.

Wins outside of the UFC are generally irrelevant. Yes I realize there are exceptions like Pride which I acknowledge, and Strikeforce and some Bellator, WEC obviously, but at this point in time it's really just UFC and a touch of Bellator. You are counting a win in some obscure Russian org in a ring over a (thought to be washed) glass chin Arlovski at the time.

I'd count that win because Arlovski is a legit opponent and did some stuff in the UFC after that, but why is Fedor's "prime" arbitrarily stopped there? Because he was undefeated to that point? Why was he not at his prime at age 33-34 which is right around the average age of the top 10 HWs right now, actually very slightly younger. Why was he not in his prime? because he fought legit competition and lost?

I understand you probably are a big Fedor guy, but it's just comical the level the competition he fought at times. Big Nog is legit but how good was he really back in 2001-2006 or ever, and that's his best win. Was Randle really that good? He was a very strong one dimensional wrestler basically. He lost to all the good UFC fighters in the early era and beat the decent ones or ones who couldn't wrestle.

Randleman had an 8-5 record from his first UFC fight up until the Fedor fight and he crushed some cans along the way. He lost to Sakuraba prior to fighting Fedor at HW.

Here's my issue, name the top 5 fighters Fedor has beaten in his career. Please do, the list of names is going to be very weak. Maybe he was past his prime during Strikeforce but even then he lost to a MW/LHW Henderson who was also past his prime. He lost 3 straight, one to a guy who isn't even that good albeit juiced, and one to a good not amazing HW in Werdum.

I think Fedor is one of the best HWs of all time but at the same time anyone who is being objective can see that his record is padded with a bunch of cans / lesser fighters / one dimensional fighters, and I believe if DC for example or perhaps other HWs fought that level of competition the narrative would be different.

Fedor has the Rickson / Royce effect, he has the aura of nostalgia and mystique. I don't think he's actually as good as many diehard fans think he is, that's all. He fought in an era where there were a ton of rudimentary games and he fought a ton of cans in Pride, he did.

Wins out of UFC were very relevant in different times and cotext when Pride was the best ogranisation and when other good ones like Rings or Pancrase existed.

Arona and Sobral for example were certanly good wins in Rings.

Fedor had big enough mileage to go out of his prime by 2010. Allready pro fighting over 10 years, 30+ fights in a high frequency.

Mileage and frequency of fighting is more important than age.

Nowadays UFC fighters have 15-20 fights in career, and they fight only once or twice per year with a lot of time in between to recover, rest and study opponents. If you fight 5-6 times a year like in the old days, you take a lot more risk of losing to lesser fighters because you have no time to recover and prepaire, and in HW anyone can land a punch. In general, the more you fight, the more you will lose.

Force DC to take 5 fights per year, to earn what fighters in those days earned, so he wolud be forced to take fights, and he would lose to lesser fighters. Force him to take a fight a month or two after beeing knocked out by Stipe, and he would lose. Force him to take risks against lesser known but dangerous and hungry fighters like Gagne, Isayev, Goltsov, Aliakbari by fighting 5-6 times per year when he is not recovered, prepaired or motivated, wothout camp, and he would lose. Force Cormier to fight in tournament with multiple unpredictable opponets in one night, and he would lose, put him in tournament with 4 fights in 3 months, and he would lose.
Force DC to fight in different rules, no cage and wrestling favoured unified rules and he would lose.
 
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That was zombie Nog 40 fights into his career. Its like how Cain is washed up now, you put him in the cage today with any of those Pride guys in their 20s and they'd beat the crap out of him.

Nog had decent hands at one point. Even Lil Nog won a Pan American games boxing Silver Medal in his younger days, now he's 10 years past his prime getting KOd by Ryan Spann...

Was hoping you'd say that. The Cain that Werdum fought wasn't at his best either. He'd been coming off another very long layoff due to another serious injury, surgery, and rehab process. And yes, taking the fight in Mexico City and training at sea level was a strategic error on his camp's part that affected how the fight played out.

That being said, Werdum did have a perfect style to give Cain problems and I wish we could have seen how that fight played out against a conditioned, healthy Cain. Maybe it plays out the same. Good chance Cain vs Prime Nog does too though.

Point is, it's logically inconsistent to completely gloss over Cain's absolute mauling of Nog while using Cain's loss to Werdum in debating who the superior generation of talent is.

EDIT: @NoBiasJustMMA
 
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Why do the LHW cut weight to avoid fighting at HW? If the HW is a weak division.

If it's true that it's a weak division. You would see a lot of current LHW not cutting weight.

Cormier got a fat gut and went in and KO'd the HW champ. HW is freaking weak division but most of the fighters have a punchers chance in there. So when you are shitty fighter stay in HW and with luck you can get pretty far but that luck will run out eventually.

Besides don't get angy bro HW is the weakest division just ask Hednerson who went up and KO'd the most dominant HW of all time. Henderson fought most of his career at MW.
 
There's no myth. the skill level is visibly lower. The condition and athleticism isn't there either.
 
Why the pride heavyweight division is belived to be so great by sherdogers in general? They had fedor, big nog, cro cop ( who couldnt defend a takedown to save his life in the beggining ) and thats it, somehow sherdogers say that was the prime of the division. Another argument is made for cain's era and again i just dont see it, cain defeated brock fucking lesnar to win the title, a guy that had to beat a 50years old man three times smaller than him to win the belt lol.

The heavyweight division of today sucks pretty bad, but still is better than every other period of its history

I believe the argument is that the UFC HW division, at that time, sucked balls and that Pride was better, not the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

The comparison usually comes out when someone is trying to shit on Fedor's status or legacy because he only fought "cans" instead of in the UFC, which was populated in the HW division by cans at that time. HW divisions are, by nature, going to be lower level than others because if you have someone who completely disregards training, he usually will still make weight and can fight, and sometimes you'll get two guys in that "condition," looking like shit individually and collectively. That doesn't happen as much in classes where you have to make weight.
 
Henderson fought most of his career at MW.
kindah tricky...

> BRAZIL OPEN FIGHT 1997: 2 Fights @ 'LW' [80 kg (175 lbs) = WW]
Hendo.png

> Rings : 5 fights @ LHW [90 kg (198 lbs)]
vlcsnap-2019-08-03-14h16m28s524.png
> 1st UFC run : 2 fights @ MW/LHW [193 lbs]... UFC´s MW Div. = [170-199.9 lbs] (HW Div.= >200 lbs)
Hendo vs goess.png
> Pride : 18 fights, & some variation here:
- 5 fights @ MW [Pride´s WW GP] > vs Busta 2: @ 183 lbs
vlcsnap-2019-05-17-09h03m14s244.png
- 13 fights @ LHW [Pride´s MW GP] > vs Kondo : @ 199 lbs / vs Nakamura : @ 195 lbs etc
vlcsnap-2019-05-24-06h08m48s508.png Hendo [195 lbs] vs Nakamura [210 lbs].png
> 2nd UFC run : 2 fights @ LHW + 3 fights @ MW

> Strikeforce : 1 fight @ MW + 2 @ LHW + 1 @ HW
fed.jpg vlcsnap-2019-04-27-13h03m36s777.png Babalu vs Hendo 2.png

> 3rd UFC run: 6 fights @ LHW + 5 @ MW
 
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And Cain boxed Nog's fucking head off. Nog could/did beat all the other guys you mentioned except Fedor, and Fedor dominated him on the ground (whereas Cain wiped him out with a striking attack).

Big Nog was years passed his prime by the time he fought Cain.
 
Cormier got a fat gut and went in and KO'd the HW champ. HW is freaking weak division but most of the fighters have a punchers chance in there. So when you are shitty fighter stay in HW and with luck you can get pretty far but that luck will run out eventually.

Besides don't get angy bro HW is the weakest division just ask Hednerson who went up and KO'd the most dominant HW of all time. Henderson fought most of his career at MW.

No he did not, by my count Henderson had 24 fights at or above 190 out of 47 fights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Henderson
 
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I would add that the UFC heavily promoted “the new breed of HWs” during the start of the Cain/JDS/Brock era.

For a large variety of reasons (including it was mostly bullshit UFC marketing to begin with) , the new breed thing never materialized
 
@DayV

I think I misinterpreted your original point anyway, which I can agree with. It's not necessarily age...the total mileage in fights / damage is a factor too.

I don't care to compare DC vs Fedor in this sense, but you are also leaving out the background of college/olympic wrestling and kidney problems, and coming into MMA later in life than Fedor. But again I don't care to debate that.

My point is, yes sure there are good wins in other orgs...especially in the past with Pride, WEC, talent in Strikeforce, and areas of Bellator. But within Pride itself I believe Fedor and others had a lot of gifted wins or cans to crush. I don't really see how that's even debatable.

Sammy Schilt is kind of a joke, Fujita is a complete joke, Gary Goodridge was never good really, Yuji Nagata is a complete joke, Ogawa was a joke, Kohsaka sucks, Zulzinho isn't a good win, Chong-Hoi Man, a completely washed up Sylvia.

I don't want to use hindsight or anything to take away credit, but it's pretty obvious these wins are all suspect / jokes / not that good. Two guys are pro wrestlers, one guy is an arm wrestler who was just okay due to his strength, one guy was a kickboxer who was just okay due to his striking prowess in MMA, one guy is a freakshow, one guy was more washed up than Fedor even is today in 2020 by far, and another guy was just a journeyman vale tudo fighter for the time period.

At that point Fedor's record was 29-1-1 and I didn't even look at the first 10 fights. So I listed 9 fights that were pretty much padded wins, and let's say 8 if we really want to count Kohsaka as legit because it was avenging the illegal elbow fake loss...or whatever.

By comparison how many "padded" wins does GSP have? or even DC? Basically Patrick Cummins and that's it.

I just think there's a bit of rose tinted glasses for Fedor. Trust me, I get it...I was a kid growing up watching Pride with my dad and his BJJ friends at times, there was definitely a mystique and aura around Fedor and I think he's an all-time great. It's just that I also think he crushed some cans along the way in Japan and it will remain an unanswered question as to....how good was he really / could he beat HWs of the 2015-2020 era.
 
Do not despair Sherdoggers, Greg Hardy is here to take the HW division to a new level, with his A level athleticism and Inhaler in hand he will crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the of the lamentation of the audience.
ae71ad5c-9222-4bed-afda-85f8aeeacb12-USP_MMA__UFC_Fight_Night-Miami-_Hardy_vs_Smoliakov.JPG

EHNZIBzXUAE9kNq.jpg
 
Lol at everybody got so triggered so badwhen I said Hendo KO'd Fedor and he was mostly fighting at MW. Dudes started to dig out all Hendos fights :D Salty much?
 
Definitely not a myth. There is far less people in general that are HWs. This and other sports taking the best athletes is why the HW division has always been weak.
 
@DayV


Sammy Schilt is kind of a joke, Fujita is a complete joke, Gary Goodridge was never good really, Yuji Nagata is a complete joke, Ogawa was a joke, Kohsaka sucks, Zulzinho isn't a good win, Chong-Hoi Man, a completely washed up Sylvia.

I don't want to use hindsight or anything to take away credit, but it's pretty obvious these wins are all suspect / jokes / not that good. Two guys are pro wrestlers, one guy is an arm wrestler who was just okay due to his strength, one guy was a kickboxer who was just okay due to his striking prowess in MMA, one guy is a freakshow, one guy was more washed up than Fedor even is today in 2020 by far, and another guy was just a journeyman vale tudo fighter for the time period.

At that point Fedor's record was 29-1-1 and I didn't even look at the first 10 fights. So I listed 9 fights that were pretty much padded wins, and let's say 8 if we really want to count Kohsaka as legit because it was avenging the illegal elbow fake loss...or whatever.

Correct historic context and facts are very importatnt.

Fujita is hardly a joke since he had wins over 2 UFC champions Kerr and Shamrock, and Pancrase champion Yvel. He was the first to beat Kerr when he was beeing discussed as no. #1 or no. #2 in the world. Also first to beat Sapp in MMA after Nogueira while that was a big thing. MMA jouralists, media, and fans belived that Fujita was pretty good at those years by ranking him often in Top 10 at that times.

Schilt definitley had skills, great standup and good submission game since he came from organisation where ground game was important. Was ranked in Top 10 vs Fedor since he was Pancrase champion and on big win streak. Shilt could KO anybody at any time, and submitt a large portion.

Koshaka, Goodride and Ogawa were top 15-20 range guys, not top, but dangerous for most. Koshaka and Goodridge had very solid careers by that point, beeing near the top of UFC in the 90's, and having notable wins vs: Taktarov, Bohnalder, Frye, V. Overeem, Pedro Otavio, Fedor, Mo Smith, Yvel, Ilyukin, Leopoldo, Vok Han, Pete Williams = very solid collection.

Sylvia was still ranked in Top 5.

So were they joke?
People who followed MMA at that time certanly did not think so. They valued those fighters as quality ones, and they left written evidences of that.
So there is really no need for incorrect arbitrary revisionism, facts have to be respected as they were at that time.
 
There's no fucking chance Tim Sylvia was ranked top 5 at that time @DayV

I could be wrong but ...no way. I followed MMA at the time. A lot of the Pride guys were smoke and mirrors, you're mentioning Bob Sapp as some milestone win.

Like I said I was young during Pride and wasn't super into details or hardcore necessarily at the time, so I could be wrong about some points. I still don't think Fujita was ever great and I don't think the other guys were "good" either.

Beating Shamrock, I assume Ken, isn't some awesome feat by the Pride era. Shamrock was top tier in like 1993-1997 or whatever but he wasn't by the time the sport evolved.

Royce and Shamrock are legends but I wouldn't put them anywhere near "GOAT" status and therefore I don't think it was some amazing win for Fujita, but I admit maybe he was better than I am giving credit for.

Bloodyelbow had Sylvia ranked 7th in 2008, July. I mean...the HW division was super weak at this time and there's multiple guys who are ranked poorly like Overeem at 13 and Cain Velasquez at 15 ish. Plenty of guys past 7 would have destroyed Sylvia. Also Fedor's brother was ranked 8th or top 10, so yeah...I mean the rankings were obviously a joke.
 
Why the pride heavyweight division is belived to be so great by sherdogers in general? They had fedor, big nog, cro cop ( who couldnt defend a takedown to save his life in the beggining ) and thats it, somehow sherdogers say that was the prime of the division. Another argument is made for cain's era and again i just dont see it, cain defeated brock fucking lesnar to win the title, a guy that had to beat a 50years old man three times smaller than him to win the belt lol.

The heavyweight division of today sucks pretty bad, but still is better than every other period of its history
Yes, because Derrick Lewis and Francis Ngannou are the fighters of the future, right? Look, you want to dog Fedor, Nog and the other guys because they didn't fight in the UFC but consider that Buentello, Mir, Monson and Simms were the "elite" UFC guys of that era. Right now, you have Miocic and Cormier trading belts. What the fuck are you talking about, man?
 
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