Where does the myth of the heavyweight division becoming worst comes from?

[markg171]

Pride fanboys have nothing else to talk about as they never moved on from that breakup 14 years agi

 

[No Skill Gap]

Speaking only to these points, Fedor has the 2nd most top wins in HW history (Nog is first), and peaks/primes are generally associated with the quantity of fights (which in turn has some correlation to chronological age but certainly not in all cases).

To that end, Fedor had 34 fights (and associated training camps) on the books at age 34.

DC has 25 at age 40.

This is also stacking those 34 fights on top of a competitive career in Sombo and even Judo earlier in his adult life. He had tons of mileage on his body.

The absolute peak version of Fedor was probably Nog 2 (the second full fight) at end of 2004. The last fight where a reasonable fan could connect Fedor to "prime Fedor" was the Big Tim fight in mid-2008.

Clearly you think Fedor is an all-time great. I don't necessarily think otherwise, but I question it.

First of all you are counting aggregate "wins". Why is that some amazing stat?

Okay then is Donald Cerrone an all-time great? He has 23 wins in the UFC. That's the most all-time. Maia has the 2nd most, and Jim Miller is tied for 3rd most with Bisping and GSP. Jon Jones is 4th and Diego Sanchez is one of the guys tied for 5th most wins in the UFC.

Wins outside of the UFC are generally irrelevant. Yes I realize there are exceptions like Pride which I acknowledge, and Strikeforce and some Bellator, WEC obviously, but at this point in time it's really just UFC and a touch of Bellator. You are counting a win in some obscure Russian org in a ring over a (thought to be washed) glass chin Arlovski at the time.

I'd count that win because Arlovski is a legit opponent and did some stuff in the UFC after that, but why is Fedor's "prime" arbitrarily stopped there? Because he was undefeated to that point? Why was he not at his prime at age 33-34 which is right around the average age of the top 10 HWs right now, actually very slightly younger. Why was he not in his prime? because he fought legit competition and lost?

I understand you probably are a big Fedor guy, but it's just comical the level the competition he fought at times. Big Nog is legit but how good was he really back in 2001-2006 or ever, and that's his best win. Was Randle really that good? He was a very strong one dimensional wrestler basically. He lost to all the good UFC fighters in the early era and beat the decent ones or ones who couldn't wrestle.

Randleman had an 8-5 record from his first UFC fight up until the Fedor fight and he crushed some cans along the way. He lost to Sakuraba prior to fighting Fedor at HW.

Here's my issue, name the top 5 fighters Fedor has beaten in his career. Please do, the list of names is going to be very weak. Maybe he was past his prime during Strikeforce but even then he lost to a MW/LHW Henderson who was also past his prime. He lost 3 straight, one to a guy who isn't even that good albeit juiced, and one to a good not amazing HW in Werdum.

I think Fedor is one of the best HWs of all time but at the same time anyone who is being objective can see that his record is padded with a bunch of cans / lesser fighters / one dimensional fighters, and I believe if DC for example or perhaps other HWs fought that level of competition the narrative would be different.

Fedor has the Rickson / Royce effect, he has the aura of nostalgia and mystique. I don't think he's actually as good as many diehard fans think he is, that's all. He fought in an era where there were a ton of rudimentary games and he fought a ton of cans in Pride, he did.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Weighing 215-225lbs doesn't really make your punching power that much weaker. Deontay Wilder weighs between 210 and 220 and he's the strongest puncher. Tyson weighed 218lbs, Foreman (prime) 225lbs, Shavers 210lbs. It's the grappling that the smaller guys are worried about. Having a 240+ guy take you down or control you against the cage is torture compared to a lighter guy,

Good point, but I still think punching power is a factor. Yes Tyson and Wilder are great examples of guys with lethal power who weren't huge weight-wise...but I also think boxing is a bit different in terms of the ability to guard with bigger gloves vs small MMA gloves. And simply put a 250-260lb guy probably is going to have great power.

Maybe it's the speed thing too for Tyson and Wilder. I just think a Derrick Lewis, Roy Nelson, Overeem, Carwin, Lesnar, roided Antonio Silva, JDS even as a smaller HW...they all have a ton of power whether it be standing, grappling, gnp (lesnar) due to their size.

It's probably just that LHW is also a shitty division on top of the size thing, because a guy like Jon Jones hasn't moved up most likely because he feels that winning at LHW is easier and a safer bet for him. He could easily get to 230-240 range within a short time, have one camp and go to HW...but the % chance of him being knocked out of manhandled are greatly increased.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Mid 00s Pride had Fedor, Cro Cop, Big Nog, Barnett, Kharitanov, Aleks, Igor, Schilt, Erickson, Goodridge etc around at the same time.

Late 00s/early 10s UFC had Cain, JDS, Brock, Carwin, Mir, Kongo, Big Country etc while Strikeforce was arguably even better with Ubereem, Werdum, DC, Bigfoot, Fedor, Barnett, Arlovski, Kharitanov. Then the two combined.


Those eras are clearly deeper than today. Stipe is great, Ngannou is great, DC is old and probably not as good as he was around the time of the SF GP but hes still great. Outside of that its coming down to guys like Blaydes, Rozenstruik and Lewis along with a bunch of 40 year olds who have been around forever and were much better a decade ago.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Mid 00s Pride had Fedor, Cro Cop, Big Nog, Barnett, Kharitanov, Aleks, Igor, Schilt, Erickson, Goodridge etc around at the same time.

Late 00s/early 10s UFC had Cain, JDS, Brock, Carwin, Mir, Kongo, Big Country etc while Strikeforce was arguably even better with Ubereem, Werdum, DC, Bigfoot, Fedor, Barnett, Arlovski, Kharitanov. Then the two combined.


Those eras are clearly deeper than today. Stipe is great, Ngannou is great, DC is old and probably not as good as he was around the time of the SF GP but hes still great. Outside of that its coming down to guys like Blaydes, Rozenstruik and Lewis along with a bunch of 40 year olds who have been around forever and were much better a decade ago.

I think DC is still very clearly the best fighter in the HW division. I think he could kill Ngannou with wrestling / grappling if he wanted, and he only lost to Stipe in the rematch because he did the classic "wrestler who falls in love with his hands". He was a retard and didn't go to the well, his wrestling / grappling to defend the belt.

DC could easily beat anyone at HW. This is a tangent but this is what pisses me off...people talk about Fedor like some folk hero god, yet DC is way closer to the actual thing. DC has only really lost to Jon Jones (who was using steroids at least once) in his entire career...outside of the Stipe rematch where he already beat the guy and could have easily won the fight.

Cormier has beat: Anthony Johnson twice, dominated a sightly washed Anderson Silva, finished Dan Henderson (who finished Fedor), won the Stirkeforce GP (Fedor was in), beat Mir and Roy Nelson, finished Stipe Miocic, and fought a competitive decision against Jon Jones who is probably the GOAT of MMA if we don't * him for roids, even then he was using at the time.

To be quite honest I think DC's resume' at HW is arguably BETTER than Fedor's despite the short stint there. He won a Stikeforce GP where there was a ton of talent, then he has gone 5-1 against all ranked opponents and won the HW title in the UFC, only loss coming off hubris really.

 

[ConorFacts]

HW boxing, NFL, NBA, Rugby and normal jobs are the reason.

 

[george14]

HW today is certainly less skilled overall. But the top guys such as Stipe, DC, Ngannou could beat any HW on a given night.

The rest of the division is pretty sorry. Fedor, Nog, and Cro Cop would dismantle most of the other guys. A guy like Mark Hunt was a borderline top 10 guy in PRIDE yet was a contender in the UFC after several beatings.

 

[spacetime]

Try watching some HW fights.
They're all terrible.
It's not getting worse though HW has always been appalling. They have the lowest skill levels and worst conditioning of all the weight classes but people like to watch them because they have power and knock each other out.

try watching fly and light weights... they have no power and poke each other for 12 rounds.

 

[Lemmy Caution]

Why the pride heavyweight division is belived to be so great by sherdogers in general? They had fedor, big nog, cro cop ( who couldnt defend a takedown to save his life in the beggining ) and thats it, somehow sherdogers say that was the prime of the division. Another argument is made for cain's era and again i just dont see it, cain defeated brock fucking lesnar to win the title, a guy that had to beat a 50years old man three times smaller than him to win the belt lol.

The heavyweight division of today sucks pretty bad, but still is better than every other period of its history

The DC vs Stipe fights were more technically sound than Fedor vs Cro Cop? And what Cro Cop did at the beginning isn't very relevant. He learned and improved, didn't he?

That said, the idea that the HW division is bad is ridiculous. Put Conor in there against Overeem. It would be slaughter. The HW division is for the true real men. That's why Cro Cop fought there.

Bobby Douglass is one of only three manly quarterbacks to have played pro football.


It doesn't mean you cannot appreciate lesser men like Montana or Brady.

 

[coldtruth]

Heavyweight.....sucks.

 

[ConorFacts]

Heavyweight.....sucks.

this fight was better than all midgets fights combined

 

[arcadeperfect]

size disadvantage against a legit HW is a real thing ... its doesnt matter which sport.

Wilder is a freak of nature & he always wanted to be 245 lbs (even his team wants that).

Banks was the reason why Ali gained 10 lbs (he dropped Ali).

He doesn't need to be 245. Furthermore, I said that weigh matters more when grappling is involved since it's easier to impose your will against a lighter person. It's also worth noting at a certain point, size has diminishing returns.

 

[ConorFacts]

He doesn't need to be 245. Furthermore, I said that weigh matters more when grappling is involved since it's easier to impose your will against a lighter person. It's also worth noting at a certain point, size has diminishing returns.

Not really.

He would lose some speed, but it doesnt matter, cuz hes already ridiculously fast and super explosiv.

 

[arcadeperfect]

Good point, but I still think punching power is a factor. Yes Tyson and Wilder are great examples of guys with lethal power who weren't huge weight-wise...but I also think boxing is a bit different in terms of the ability to guard with bigger gloves vs small MMA gloves. And simply put a 250-260lb guy probably is going to have great power.

Maybe it's the speed thing too for Tyson and Wilder. I just think a Derrick Lewis, Roy Nelson, Overeem, Carwin, Lesnar, roided Antonio Silva, JDS even as a smaller HW...they all have a ton of power whether it be standing, grappling, gnp (lesnar) due to their size.

It's probably just that LHW is also a shitty division on top of the size thing, because a guy like Jon Jones hasn't moved up most likely because he feels that winning at LHW is easier and a safer bet for him. He could easily get to 230-240 range within a short time, have one camp and go to HW...but the % chance of him being knocked out of manhandled are greatly increased.

It's the grappling that helps the bigger fighters. That's why in striking sports you'll see everyone go up in weight at some point. Hell, Izzy was able to fight at HW in kickboxing since no one could touch him. It would be harder for him in mma since guys would wanna grab him and control him on the ground. Yeah most guys that are over 200lbs are going to have KO power just from being that size, but there are guys like Fury, Ivanov, and Volkov who don't have power in their hands.

 

[arcadeperfect]

Not really.

He would lose some speed, but it doesnt matter, cuz hes already ridiculously fast and super explosiv.

245 is substantially heavier than what he is right now. His stamina would suffer. Anyone that puts on 30 pounds is going to feel sluggish.

 

[ConorFacts]

245 is substantially heavier than what he is right now. His stamina would suffer. Anyone that puts on 30 pounds is going to feel sluggish.

Wilder never seems to lose his power and speed through 12 rounds ... he will be fine.

 

[cmw43]

HW division at any time and point has been the weakest division out there. There is not enough big athletic guys around who like to get punched in the face. Just think how many guys that size you know who are actually fit and talented and then think how many regular size guys like that you know.

Yep well Heavyweight and flyweight. How many 5'4 athletic guys do you know?

 

[No Skill Gap]

Yep well Heavyweight and flyweight. How many 5'4 athletic guys do you know?

They are both outliers but I don't think HW is as much of an outlier as FW is. I guess I'm thinking of the US though...considering all the lighter boxers and MMA fighters are from Mexico/central america/Asia - mainly.

Yeah it's the lack of straight up human beings at those sizes + the fact that the lightest weights are funneled into boxing and the heaviest weight guys and tallest are funneled into Football + Basketball + (Baseball, Hockey, Rugby, etc).

MMA has progressively got more popular but just not that many people are going to love grueling training, getting hurt all the time, and getting punched in the face / shins / grappling-wrestling, especially when the money is paltry compared to doing the first two for the NFL.

 

[ConorFacts]

They are both outliers but I don't think HW is as much of an outlier as FW is. I guess I'm thinking of the US though...considering all the lighter boxers and MMA fighters are from Mexico/central america/Asia - mainly.

Yeah it's the lack of straight up human beings at those sizes + the fact that the lightest weights are funneled into boxing and the heaviest weight guys and tallest are funneled into Football + Basketball + (Baseball, Hockey, Rugby, etc).

MMA has progressively got more popular but just not that many people are going to love grueling training, getting hurt all the time, and getting punched in the face / shins / grappling-wrestling, especially when the money is paltry compared to doing the first two for the NFL.

college athletes will make more money than 99,99% of MMA fighters (2022)

combat sports are dying

 

[arcadeperfect]

Wilder never seems to lose his power and speed through 12 rounds ... he will be fine.

You have zero clue how he'd perform if he was 30 pounds heavier. The reason why his endurance is so good is because he isn't carrying any extra weight.