When to Stop the Fight - Myth of Common Early Stoppages

[Threetrees]

In all honesty I wouldn't be opposed to seeing standing 8 counts if they're out on their feet. If it hits the ground that's obviously a different story because of the grappling. Problem is there would be a tiny margin of scenarios that you could realistically apply it.

With the 7 times I was obviously exaggerating to make a point, obviously it doesn't happen that often but once a fighter gets dropped and actually loses consciousness 3 times in a round that seems like a sensible time to stop the fight in my opinion.


I agree, that was exactly what I said originally. The ref should make an attempt to get there but if the fight continues and the fighter is active then just keep an eye on them. My point was after several times of it happening I think in the interest of safety the fight should probably be stopped anyway. Obviously in boxing a knockdown is equal to a point for the round and after 3 the fight gets stopped. I think this should be the case with fighters going limp at the very least if not when a knockdown occurs because obviously it's slightly different to boxing.

A lot of refs are coming around to doing the latter point you made
It's happened a lot before, but it stopped for a while. There were more standing stoppages early on, and we've had some since that were good

It should be like how they stop fights due to leg kicks
If a dude gets dropped more than three times (and I mean MMA dropped, like flatlined and wakes up) they should be forced to evaluate them in the middle of rounds and if their concussed stop that fight. That I fully agree with. During the actual round though, we've seen things like Kongo/Barry where the guy who got KO'd 10x came back and won the fight moments later

 

[Anon Von Ymous]

Not according to the refs, though I agree it's extremely subjective, there's just not a better alternative.
You can't just turtle, that's not intelligent defense - watch some of the vlogs where Big John explains it to fighters, you have to be ACTIVELY making moves to return to a position of offense and you get one warning to adjust and do it.

I think this is less about how much damage they're receiving and more about them avoiding the fight.

It comes from the wrestling mentality of stalling or running in boxing where you get deducted a point and possibly DQd. I perfectly agree with a stoppage if a fighter is solely just turtling up and not making any attempt to change the position.

The argument is that if the punches aren't doing any damage then it shouldn't stop them from moving and if they are hard punches then if they weren't turtling up they'd get punched to oblivion anyway so it would be stopped regardless.

Calzaghe made an undefeated career of stopping guys against the ropes like this in boxing.

 

[Karl Tanner]

There's a defined rule

It's when the fighter can no longer intelligently defend themselves

If a guy gets dropped but wakes up before the ref or the other fighter gets there, they're intelligently defending by the time the offense restarts - though the ref is in their rights to stop it. It has nothing to do with going unconcious, the moment you're not actively moving to defend and get back to a position of offense the fights over. You don't even have to be hurt.

That sounds nice but there are cases where fighters don't even defend themselves let alone intelligently and switch to auto-pilot mode and can still win. Hell, even in some fights some fighters knowingly don't care about defending, blocking, dodging and receive tremendous amount of punishment.

 

[MPD-Psycho]

On another video Big John said he could tell by the way a fighter falls down.

 

[BennyST]

Interesting point. It's hard to give a set answer as I think the topic is subjective to who the fighter is.

Alvarez for example is known for being a bit chinny and getting dropped but coming back again so you kind of feel like you owe him the chance to recover, some other fighters it may not be common in so you need to be careful on the occasions it does happen and then you have some in the middle where it does happen often but they're not coherent when they wake back up and they take a lot of punishment.

Realistically the rule is there for the safety of the fighters. So I say the ref should always try to intervene but if the fighter wakes up instantly before they get there and they're aware of their surroundings then just keep a close eye.

If it happens more than twice in a round I think it's safe to stop the fight in the best interests of the fighter getting dinged up. The 3-knockdown rule applies in boxing so I don't see why you can't have a variation of it for MMA.

Yeah, it's a hard thing to decide upon. When a guy gets knocked down 3 times, he's clearly not defending himself to the point that it would be easy to stop the fight without too many issues coming up. In saying that, it should still be up ti the refs discretion taking into account the fighter's history, durability, how severe the knockdown/damage etc. Hard thing to make a rule about.

Just one little side point though, it's not actually a rule in boxing anymore. No title fights have had the 3 KD rule in a couple of decades now from memory. Can't remember when they got phased out exactly, but yeah, no 3 KD in boxing.

The last time I remember it being used, or coming into effect, was the Barkley/Benn fight and it ruined what could possibly have turned out to be one of the greatest wars ever seen. Instead we got an amazing 1 round fight, but it would have been so much better considering their durability, Barkley's in particular. I'm certainly glad it wasn't in effect for Pac/Marquez 1. Would have killed an epic fight, and put to bed one of the greatest rivalries ever seen before it even got a chance to take off.

 

[Threetrees]

That sounds nice but there are cases where fighters don't even defend themselves let alone intelligently and switch to auto-pilot mode and can still win. Hell, even in some fights some fighters knowingly don't care about defending, blocking, dodging and receive tremendous amount of punishment.

Yeah I know where you're coming from, I made that point in another post
But that's going to happen regardless, there will never be refs who are savvy and intelligent enough across the board to be able to accurately determine when a guy is out even if they're still moving.
I honestly thing "intelligently defending" is the best we got, and I think you ere on the side of caution and fighter safety

 

[Threetrees]

Yeah, it's a hard thing to decide upon. When a guy gets knocked down 3 times, he's clearly not defending himself to the point that it would be easy to stop the fight without too many issues coming up. In saying that, it should still be up ti the refs discretion taking into account the fighter's history, durability, how severe the knockdown/damage etc. Hard thing to make a rule about.

Just one little side point though, it's not actually a rule in boxing anymore. No title fights have had the 3 KD rule in a couple of decades now from memory. Can't remember when they got phased out exactly, but yeah, no 3 KD in boxing.

The last time I remember it being used, or coming into effect, was the Barkley/Benn fight and it ruined what could possibly have turned out to be one of the greatest wars ever seen. Instead we got an amazing 1 round fight, but it would have been so much better considering their durability, Barkley's in particular. I'm certainly glad it wasn't in effect for Pac/Marquez 1. Would have killed an epic fight, and put to bed one of the greatest rivalries ever seen before it even got a chance to take off.

Some states still use it for non title fights
No major belt body has used it since maybe 2010? At some point the commissions ended it
Because it's largely stupid, and most boxing refs are good enough to know the right time to stop a fight

 

[BennyST]

Some states still use it for non title fights
No major belt body has used it since maybe 2010? At some point the commissions ended it
Because it's largely stupid, and most boxing refs are good enough to know the right time to stop a fight

That early still huh? I know that it was still used in some smaller fights but I don't remember it being used in any major title fight in fucking ages. Maybe that's just because there hasn't been one where it's actually needed to be stopped so seems like a lot longer than it actually is.

But yeah, when you get to world title level it's unnecessary due to the refs better discretion and the level of the fighters. It much easier to tell when someone is out of it or if they are just flash knockdowns.

 

[Threetrees]

That early still huh? I know that it was still used in some smaller fights but I don't remember it being used in any major title fight in fucking ages. Maybe that's just because there hasn't been one where it's actually needed to be stopped so seems like a lot longer than it actually is.

But yeah, when you get to world title level it's unnecessary due to the refs better discretion and the level of the fighters. It much easier to tell when someone is out of it or if they are just flash knockdowns.

I'm not sure entirely when it ended
But I know the second Pac/Marquez fight which was 2009(?) made news because it was expressly not going to be used. Which means I think it was still being used in some title fights abroad I think, ones that weren't using the unified rules. At some point all major belt bodies modified their rules so it wasn't in affect anymore, not sure when

 

[qw3rty]

Better earlier than later
Fighters protection is referee's first obligation, so I'm OK with that

 

[BennyST]

I'm not sure entirely when it ended
But I know the second Pac/Marquez fight which was 2009(?) made news because it was expressly not going to be used. Which means I think it was still being used in some title fights abroad I think, ones that weren't using the unified rules. At some point all major belt bodies modified their rules so it wasn't in affect anymore, not sure when

Yeah, I remember the fuss their first fight created afterward with the super rabid Pac fans as they were all unhappy that Marquez was allowed to continue and they were all bitching that the 3 knockdown rule should have been in effect and he should have lost.

Can you imagine what we would have lost if that had happened though?! Even as a Pac fan, I'm glad it happened because we got to see one of the highest level rivalries in the history of boxing full of crazy skill and brutal violence spanning a decade!

Anyway, yeah, I didn't think it had been used for any title in a couple of decades now.

 

[taurus]

If the ref sees that a fighter lost his consciousness for a milisecond, he has the right to call the fight. I don't care that you gained your consciousness immediately after that, you were out and should get checked out. It's for your own well being. Deal with it.

IMO, i'd rather have 10 early stoppages than one late stoppage. Because we're still trying to prove the legitimacy of the sport and such cases (late stoppages) lead to all the scenarios we don't want. Though i do agree that a fight should not be stopped if a fighter is not defending the punches that are clearly not landing.

 

[Karl Tanner]

Which is a stupid fucking rule because how many fights have been stopped when fighters are covering up? Many and that IS intelligently defending.

You're right if that's the actual rule. However it's also stupid for the fight to continue more than let's say 10 seconds if one fighter is on the ground not moving but just covering his head and face with his arms and not fighting back at all while getting hit by punches, elbows, kicks, knees whether they're landing on his arms or head or face.

I know many people like watching violent beating but it's something else. It's not a fight if the opponent doesn't do anything at all.

 

[Irishwhiskey119]

You're right if that's the actual rule. However it's also stupid for the fight to continue more than let's say 10 seconds if one fighter is on the ground not moving but just covering his head and face with his arms and not fighting back at all while getting hit by punches, elbows, kicks, knees whether they're landing on his arms or head or face.

I know many people like watching violent beating but it's something else. It's not a fight if the opponent doesn't do anything at all.

It's actually not stupid because the attacking fighter is gassing himself out allowing the defending fighter a future opportunity to get an advantage. Punches to gloves of a stunned opponent do not do the damage people think it does.

 

[Karl Tanner]

Punches to gloves of a stunned opponent do not do the damage people think it does.

Ofc not. The thing is that damage was already done before and that's why that fighter is on the ground protecting his head with his arms but not doing anything else.

If you can show me a fight in UFC, where a fighter finds himself in that position without moving, stunned and only covering his head witjh his arms for more than 10 seconds only to win the fight later, I can see your point.

 

[Sherm]

As far as I know, the "Intelligently Defending" thing is not an actual rule. It doesn't appear anywhere in the Unified Rules, it's just a heuristic that I believe Herb Dean came up with.

This is the entirety of the passage on "Stopping Contest" in the Unified Rules:

The referee is the sole arbiter of a contest and is the only individual authorized to stop a contest. The referee may take advice from the ringside physician and/or the Commission with respect to the decision to stop a contest.

The referee and the ringside physician are the only individuals authorized to enter the ring/fighting area at any time during competition other than the rest periods and subsequent to the contest ending

http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations

I think the "Intelligent Defense" criteria is a pretty good one, although I also think its good that refs exercise a degree of discretion in letting some fights go on longer than others. You see them give champs way more rope than anyone else, and fighters on TUF way less.

I think they should make corner stoppages "legal" and actually encourage corners to throw in the towel if they want to. This will take a lot of pressure off of the refs.

 

[Based Akali]

What I don't like are the kind of stoppages that occur just because a guy is covering up, and the opponent just rains down a bunch of shots that aren't landing. I get that you need to fight back to make the ref see that you are still in the fight, but I wish the refs did a better job of acknowledging when punches aren't landing.

So much this, I hate stoppages like. "You need to defend yourself!" What the hell do people think they are doing when their opponents are only hitting their shoulders etc. No fight should ever be stopped because a fighter is covering and their opponent is just throwing shots that aren't landing into their arms etc. It should be on the aggressor there to pick their shots better, if a fighter is raining down 3 or 4 punches a second into your shoulder, the smart thing to do isn't try and move out of that position and risk getting blasted in the face like "defending" yourself is seen as by the refs.

 

[mon]

You may have misinterpreted what I meant. I was taking about 3 flash KOs in 1 round where they've physically lost consciousness. I was comparing it to the 3-"knockdown" rule in boxing but I'm talking instances more like the Pat Barry/Kongo fight where they literally went out then woke up instantly as they hit the ground.

With Nate, he never lost consciousness and one of those knockdowns was more a case of him getting stunned and his leg giving way beneath him as he leaned away to be honest anyway.

All good, I deliberately misinterpreted to make an exaggerated example as any mention of that fights bring out the extremes.

Every time your stunned you've lost consciousness. One minute you're standing the next you're waking up falling, to me the only difference is scale or time out i.e. Nate a fraction of a second, Kongo/Barry half a second.

Working off your back is the same and is worse for being subjective as you don't have the falling to highlight you were out(however momentarily) and the time is lost without being recognised.

Some peoples brains are set to not go out, others to be chinny but recover and others have the worstor best if you aren't making money from combat sports and brain protection is more important than defense.

 

[ramair455]

Not according to the refs, though I agree it's extremely subjective, there's just not a better alternative.
You can't just turtle, that's not intelligent defense - watch some of the vlogs where Big John explains it to fighters, you have to be ACTIVELY making moves to return to a position of offense and you get one warning to adjust and do it.

I think this is because clinically speaking you don't have to pass out (lose consciousness LOC) to have a concussion. Some fighters will have obvious signs, and forgetting what happened right before the blow but others won't.

 

[Threetrees]

I think this is because clinically speaking you don't have to pass out (lose consciousness LOC) to have a concussion. Some fighters will have obvious signs, and forgetting what happened right before the blow but others won't.

That's exactly correct - and more so, refs aren't trained (nor should they be) to recognize concussion signs and symptoms midfight. So they just go off of responsiveness, with loss of consciousness being the most obvious and objective sign of unresponsiveness.