When to Stop the Fight - Myth of Common Early Stoppages

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Karl Tanner, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. Karl Tanner

    Karl Tanner Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    I know that most people here think that when a guy goes unconscious they stay that way for a long amount of time. On the contrary the next impact brings their conscious back until they take an another knocking-out hit. It can lead to a very-damaging loop like that. However in the same time, they may not get an another KO hit and it would look like he wasn't KOd in the first place.

    An example from Big John:

    But also this opens an another can of worms. For example in the last Conor - Eddie fight Eddie clearly lost his conscious in the first knockdown. However when he hit the deck he gained his conscious back and the fight went on.

    So, it's clear sometimes referees don't stop whenever a guy goes unconscious. But sometimes they stop the fight as soon as someone goes unconscious.

    Where do you think the line should be? A few seconds of going unconscious? Or as soon as it happens? Or if it happens multiple times? Or if it becomes a loop of going unconscious-conscious on the ground?
     
  2. Anon Von Ymous

    Anon Von Ymous Say something stupid and I will ridicule you

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    Interesting point. It's hard to give a set answer as I think the topic is subjective to who the fighter is.

    Alvarez for example is known for being a bit chinny and getting dropped but coming back again so you kind of feel like you owe him the chance to recover, some other fighters it may not be common in so you need to be careful on the occasions it does happen and then you have some in the middle where it does happen often but they're not coherent when they wake back up and they take a lot of punishment.

    Realistically the rule is there for the safety of the fighters. So I say the ref should always try to intervene but if the fighter wakes up instantly before they get there and they're aware of their surroundings then just keep a close eye.

    If it happens more than twice in a round I think it's safe to stop the fight in the best interests of the fighter getting dinged up. The 3-knockdown rule applies in boxing so I don't see why you can't have a variation of it for MMA.
     
  3. Dream Evil

    Dream Evil Purple Belt

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    The referee's job is a lot harder than it looks. He's got to make a call in real time, with thousands of people watching.

    That said, I'm fine with them stopping the fight as soon as someone goes limp, even if only for a second. At that point, the damage is done.

    What I don't like are the kind of stoppages that occur just because a guy is covering up, and the opponent just rains down a bunch of shots that aren't landing. I get that you need to fight back to make the ref see that you are still in the fight, but I wish the refs did a better job of acknowledging when punches aren't landing.

    But that just circles back to my original point. The ref has a tough job.
     
  4. LOLAinsleyHarriott

    LOLAinsleyHarriott Stirring the Pot.

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    At the Referee's discretion, always.

    He's there to protect the fighters as well as referee the fight.
     
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  5. mon

    mon Brown Belt

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    This is rarer than hens teeth. A sherdog thread that is nothing but intelligence. Thank you TS and replies.

    I like the first response as it is subjective to the fighter and there are flash knockouts and than there are knockouts. Almost every time a boxer gets a standing count from being dropped he was out, the only difference is time out.
    I don't believe
    should be the end of the fight as being judged as a fighter isn't just being judged on your ability to hit an opponent, dodge/block a blow but on you ability to recover.

    If taking Anon V out of context a little as its not in one round but look at McGregor Diaz 2 but change it a little. If Diaz had had all 3 knockdowns in one round I wouldn't want to see a stoppage so I guess I disagree with dream evils -I'm fine with them stopping the fight as soon as someone goes limp, even if only for a second. At that point, the damage is done.

    Like this though
    Realistically the rule is there for the safety of the fighters. So I say the ref should always try to intervene but if the fighter wakes up instantly before they get there and they're aware of their surroundings then just keep a close eye.


    But definitely agree with- The referee's job is a lot harder than it looks. He's got to make a call in real time, with thousands of people watching.

    What I don't like are the kind of stoppages that occur just because a guy is covering up, and the opponent just rains down a bunch of shots that aren't landing. I get that you need to fight back to make the ref see that you are still in the fight, but I wish the refs did a better job of acknowledging when punches aren't landing.......

    When someone's out they're out and stop it but if they wake up, reset and fight let them go unless its a smashing with dominating damage combined with an in out consciousness. Everyone forgets that usually its the fighters that have pleaded to the ref beforehand to give them every chance to recover. The Ref's are human and if they like you will let it go.... or if they don't they may as well
     
  6. Anon Von Ymous

    Anon Von Ymous Say something stupid and I will ridicule you

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    You may have misinterpreted what I meant. I was taking about 3 flash KOs in 1 round where they've physically lost consciousness. I was comparing it to the 3-"knockdown" rule in boxing but I'm talking instances more like the Pat Barry/Kongo fight where they literally went out then woke up instantly as they hit the ground.

    With Nate, he never lost consciousness and one of those knockdowns was more a case of him getting stunned and his leg giving way beneath him as he leaned away to be honest anyway.
     
  7. Anon Von Ymous

    Anon Von Ymous Say something stupid and I will ridicule you

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    Very true. I think setting some guidelines is never a bad idea though to maintain a level of consistency.
     
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  8. LOLAinsleyHarriott

    LOLAinsleyHarriott Stirring the Pot.

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    At the Referee's discretion, when a fighter is unable to defend themselves from attack the fight should be stopped.

    For me that's the simplest but most effective guideline to follow.

    I'd then expect the referee to be significantly trained enough to identify that scenario 9.9/10.
     
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  9. MisdemeanorMMA

    MisdemeanorMMA Blue Belt

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    9.9? The top refs have a lot of fights under there belt and are only human. I agree it should be a high % but someone could die and once the fight is stopped that's it, good or bad stoppage. Some own up to there mistakes, but I like the old saying, better stopped to soon then to late.
     
  10. Threetrees

    Threetrees Donald Trump is a Hoe

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    There's a defined rule

    It's when the fighter can no longer intelligently defend themselves

    If a guy gets dropped but wakes up before the ref or the other fighter gets there, they're intelligently defending by the time the offense restarts - though the ref is in their rights to stop it. It has nothing to do with going unconcious, the moment you're not actively moving to defend and get back to a position of offense the fights over. You don't even have to be hurt.
     
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  11. LOLAinsleyHarriott

    LOLAinsleyHarriott Stirring the Pot.

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    9.9/10 is pretty high tbf haha OK I wouldn't expect them to achieve that but naturally, the aim is to get every decision right.
     
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  12. Leinster Rugby

    Leinster Rugby Black Belt

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    Brain matter should be visible on the octagon floor before a fight is stopped
     
  13. Anon Von Ymous

    Anon Von Ymous Say something stupid and I will ridicule you

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    I think the thread is aimed more at when is a good time to stop a fight in multiple cases of a fighter losing consciousness rather than how they're responding.

    A fighter could get flash KOd 7 times in 1 round but I wouldn't agree with letting it carry on just because the guy woke up as he hit the mat every single time. There does need to be a consensus about what is too much else it'll lead to a lot of fighters with brain problems.

    Brad Pickett comes to mind as a good example. He was out against Almeida then half a second later woke up and was perfectly coherent, obviously didn't realise he'd been knocked out but when he asked and they told him he just walked off pissed that it had happened, he didn't argue against it.

    I don't think anyone would disagree that that was a good stoppage, including Pickett himself obviously. And that was only one lights out, not multiple recurrences. Response does not necessarily equal severity.
     
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  14. Irishwhiskey119

    Irishwhiskey119 Banned Banned

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    Go watch Anderson Silva vs James Irvin. That was a perfect stoppage imo.

    That being said there are TONS of early stoppages nowadays and it's a real problem.
     
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  15. Irishwhiskey119

    Irishwhiskey119 Banned Banned

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    Which is a stupid fucking rule because how many fights have been stopped when fighters are covering up? Many and that IS intelligently defending.
     
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  16. Threetrees

    Threetrees Donald Trump is a Hoe

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    I get the point, it's just largely irrelevant,
    That's gets hugely subjective - some guys get shutoff everytime they get hit clean, but still fight on- guys like Leben and Roy Nelson are almost certainly concussed despite the fact that they remain on their feet and zombie forward, some guys lose conciousness and remain standing and keep fighting then after the fight they can't remember entire rounds. All scenarios are equally bad for you, but one is just a lot more obvious.

    The consensus is that the refs have to determine when a guy is no longer intelligently defending himself, the lack of 8 counts and the fact that we don't have concussion screenings in the middle of the fight means that the easiest way to determine that is just based on what the ref can see the fighter do. Your '7 times' is an extreme example - that happens so rarely. The Almeida example is a good one, he was out and the ref determined that it was over - that happens a lot nowadays and is perfectly valid
    But if a guy drops and jumps back up before anyone can register what happens, if the ref stops the fight fine, if he doesn't that's also fair - dude is making an intelligent defense in that scenario and keeps going

    MMA is going to lead the brain problems no matter what, there's no good fix for it. Men are getting into cages and punching each other full force in the head, after spending 8 weeks in camps getting punched in the head. They're all going to have CTE except for the guys like Cruz or GSP that learned a long time ago getting hit is bad for your health. It's just the reality of the sport. Kind of like american football, try to make it safer all you want - one dude goes into concussion protocol almost every game, and there are four or five dudes that are concussed and don't even realize it.
     
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  17. Threetrees

    Threetrees Donald Trump is a Hoe

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    Not according to the refs, though I agree it's extremely subjective, there's just not a better alternative.
    You can't just turtle, that's not intelligent defense - watch some of the vlogs where Big John explains it to fighters, you have to be ACTIVELY making moves to return to a position of offense and you get one warning to adjust and do it.
     
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  18. Irishwhiskey119

    Irishwhiskey119 Banned Banned

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    I've seen everything and i get it but refs are not all knowing. Even their core concepts are subjective and evolve. This is a baby sport you can't expect their guidelines to be rock solid yet anyway.

    I do respect Big John though and he has a great fight mind but he is influenced by the television and money and fan reactions a little bit. Not as much as others but a little and that is a problem.
     
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  19. Threetrees

    Threetrees Donald Trump is a Hoe

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    Yeah I understand that

    But I honestly think that many problems are due to refs sucking, not rules sucking. It's like a few years ago when there was a robbery every single card - they adjusted the rules and made it a little clearer, but judging still sucked until judges themselves started getting better

    Get some better refs in there, educate them well and hold them accountable for bad stoppages and we'd get better ones.
    Also it's worth noting that they are humans, and they sometimes let their personal feelings dictate how they ref, which is reasonable but obviously unfair. Lots of fighters have talked about talking to refs before fights and telling them "You know I get rocked every fight, don't stop it on the first one". And the refs oblidged a lot of the times. A lot of other times a ref jumps in way to early because a particular strike looks super bad, even if the effects themselves weren't

    is normal
     
  20. Anon Von Ymous

    Anon Von Ymous Say something stupid and I will ridicule you

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    In all honesty I wouldn't be opposed to seeing standing 8 counts if they're out on their feet. If it hits the ground that's obviously a different story because of the grappling. Problem is there would be a tiny margin of scenarios that you could realistically apply it.

    With the 7 times I was obviously exaggerating to make a point, obviously it doesn't happen that often but once a fighter gets dropped and actually loses consciousness 3 times in a round that seems like a sensible time to stop the fight in my opinion.

    I agree, that was exactly what I said originally. The ref should make an attempt to get there but if the fight continues and the fighter is active then just keep an eye on them. My point was after several times of it happening I think in the interest of safety the fight should probably be stopped anyway. Obviously in boxing a knockdown is equal to a point for the round and after 3 the fight gets stopped. I think this should be the case with fighters going limp at the very least if not when a knockdown occurs because obviously it's slightly different to boxing.
     
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