When someone taps - YOU LET GO (vid)

[Crazy Legs]

Too bad the crowd was more civilized than the renta-pigs.

 

[bowened]

However, it appears that it is impossible to communicate with idiots. Show me the tackle, Einstein.

Maybe the deaf guy just fell on the floor on his own. I could be wrong.

 

[bowened]

BTW, how many deaf people have you communicated with while trying to apprehend for possibly committing a crime?

None. I'm not a mall cop so I haven't had the opportunity. But you would seriously have to suck at life if you can't think of ANY better options in this scenario to engage a deaf person in communication than tackling and choking them.

I'll help you get started. Step in front of the person. Ask to look in their bag and see their receipt. If they start doing sign language and unintelligibly mumbling while showing a face of confusion, this is your cue that they may be deaf. You know what? Now that I've walked through the scenario, I see where you're coming from. You really have no choice at this point other than to tackle and choke the person.

 

[JarMan]

Here's the problem. The video starts with the guys already on the ground. We don't know if anybody got tackled or anything else. And do you really think the only way to get somebody on the ground is by tackling them? We don't know anything about what led up to the video except for what people have said, which frankly, is not very reliable information. People want to jump to conclusions because in their minds security/cops = bad. People need to grow the ef up.

 

[206warrior]

Sweet jesus people, try looking at the other side for juuuuuust a second. YOU are a security guard. Guys walk out, alarm goes off. You shout at them to stop, they ignore you. You shout again and give chase...they ignore you. So you tell someone to call the police and head out to stop the guy. You are going to restrain him until the police arrive. He freaks out, well, of course, I expect that, but I'm going to keep him here until the police arrive. His friend starts going nuts, what kind of scam are these guys pulling? I can't make sense of what they're saying. Hmm, they sound like they might be deaf?

Okay, stop. What the hell are they SUPPOSED to do at this point?

"Oh, well, I'm sorry, I didn't know you were deaf, please proceed on your way with our stolen merchandise!" -uh, no

"Hmm, okay he's deaf, his buddy is freaking out and appears deaf also, but he's really squirming so I need to hold this guy down until the cops get here." -hmm, maybe?

And at NO point did he ever "choke him out." They guy was never unconscious. The security guard looked like he was merely trying to control him. Tight head and arm control. Holding the guys arm behind his back. He NEVER threw a punch. And once he was able to mount and then subdue, he cuffed him, and quietly led him away. You guys are all acting like because these guys were deaf that they should be treated differently somehow than any other person who sets off the alarm. That the security guards should just stand up and "hopefully" these guys will write notes back and forth to them to get it all straightened out. How do you know that they won't kick the guards in the nuts and run away? How do you know the spastic friend didn't just walk out with a cutlery set and is going to open it and gut one of the guards? Well, you don't. So you contain the situation, you CONTROL the situation, to the best of your ability. You don't let someone ELSE control the situation. Deaf or otherwise. The is the same problem that police officers face every day during "routine" police stops. Just because you've never killed anyone or have never fired a gun doesn't mean they know it, BUT they HAVE to assume it for their safety.

I'm not saying that the deaf guys stole something but I'm not saying that they DIDN'T either. More than likely this is a case of some cashier not de-magnetizing or removing a security tag on something that they bought. But at the same time the guards didn't hurt him and in all actuality was quite "gentle". Think about what that security guard could have done to the guy on the bottom if he wanted to? Knees...punches...etc.

You are making out some kind of fucking oceans 11 scenario. Two guys walk out of your average mall store. Alarm goes off, they keep walking. you catch up, and talk to them. You don't tackle one of them and apply a choke.

 

[thereddestruby]

Here's the problem. The video starts with the guys already on the ground. We don't know if anybody got tackled or anything else. And do you really think the only way to get somebody on the ground is by tackling them? We don't know anything about what led up to the video except for what people have said, which frankly, is not very reliable information. People want to jump to conclusions because in their minds security/cops = bad. People need to grow the ef up.

The problem is that you are just grasping at straws now.

 

[HuskerFan2418]

Completely disregarding the man being deaf and having done nothing wrong, there are much better ways of restraining someone. There is a reason cops put people on their stomach with their hands behind them and a knee on their back/neck. You can easily hold someone there, while diverting your attention elsewhere(receipt), and remaining calm. But I guess this guy wanted to show off his UFC training to everyone around.

 

[MasonTJJ]

I don't get it.
I know I might get slammed for this but how was the security guard supposed to know the guy was deaf? He seemed like he was doing his job to me. Poor technique, but he probably makes 10$ an hour, you can't expect Rickson skills.
The guy was resisting and his friend wasn't making matters any better.
Every time a video like this comes up the lesson should be clear. Whenever a cop, security guard, bouncer or whatever tries to "apprehend" you, you should comply and do whatever the hell they say. When people fight back, no matter how justified they may be, that's when things get rough, and I don't want some 300 pound gorilla who has no idea what he is doing trying UFC moves on me.
Yes sir, whatever you say sir. We will straighten this out in court sir.
I just have a feeling that if everyone had seen the video without knowing the handicaps of both of the gentlemen who were the subjects being detained, it would have been a completely different lot of responses.
Just my opinion.

Sorry if I didn't take the time to read all 12 pages and see if someone replied to you, but I felt like I had to respond to a serious set of misconceptions in your post.

Unless this "security guard" - a term I use loosely for a wannabe and a thug like this - is an LEO, it is not legal for him to detain someone how he did. As a customer, you cannot be legally detained for failing to show a receipt upon request. (Decent explanation Am I Required by Law To Show My Receipt When I'm Leaving Wal-Mart? - Straight Dope Message Board - post 12). Even if you see the guy grab a pair of pants/shirt/whatever and run out of the store, you're limited to detention "in a reasonable manner" until the real police arrive (language of this is similar in most states' general statutes), which this obviously is not.

Security guards, bouncers, rent-a-cops, etc. almost always have exactly the same law enforcement rights as you do - none. To tackle, apprehend, choke, or otherwise bodily harm someone else constitutes, at a minimum, both assault and battery. If it's a plainclothes LEO, we're in an entirely different situation. At that point, you do say yes sir/m'am because resisting arrest can get you in bigger legal trouble, tased, maced, or even shot. But to blindly surrender your rights to some juiced up meathead GDI just because he works for an establishment you're patronizing? No way.

It's problematic, sure, that these guys were unsympathetic to the two brothers being deaf. But my attitude would be exactly the same if the brothers could hear. Security guards broke the law, acted like complete assholes, and almost seriously hurt someone. Should either lose their jobs and a massive civil suit, or have gotten stomped right then and there.

PS - Shit technique anyway.

 

[JarMan]

I'm aware that tackling is not the only way to takedown and start choking a deaf person who hasn't committed a crime. But witnesses said he was tackled, which of course, you're willing to ignore.

Witnesses? You mean everyone here on this forum who wasn't there. What witness have you talked to? Do you have some inside information?

And seriously, "security/cops=bad" is the best you got? All of my cop buddies that I train with would be surprised hear I feel that way, lol. Here's the next argument you should try on. We'll all must be racist! lol.

I wasn't necessarily talking about you. Try reading the thread. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Seriously. Go back and read the comments. I can quote them for you if you're STILL not able to see what I'm referring to.

 

[JarMan]

Completely disregarding the man being deaf and having done nothing wrong, there are much better ways of restraining someone. There is a reason cops put people on their stomach with their hands behind them and a knee on their back/neck. You can easily hold someone there, while diverting your attention elsewhere(receipt), and remaining calm. But I guess this guy wanted to show off his UFC training to everyone around.

How do you know the guy did nothing wrong? Do you have some information that's not based on internet rumors? And I agree, there are much better ways of restraining people. I'm certainly not arguing that the security guard had good technique. But he did what he could. And it didn't appear that he hurt the guy.

 

[JarMan]

Sorry if I didn't take the time to read all 12 pages and see if someone replied to you, but I felt like I had to respond to a serious set of misconceptions in your post.

Unless this "security guard" - a term I use loosely for a wannabe and a thug like this - is an LEO, it is not legal for him to detain someone how he did. As a customer, you cannot be legally detained for failing to show a receipt upon request. (Decent explanation Am I Required by Law To Show My Receipt When I'm Leaving Wal-Mart? - Straight Dope Message Board - post 12). Even if you see the guy grab a pair of pants/shirt/whatever and run out of the store, you're limited to detention "in a reasonable manner" until the real police arrive (language of this is similar in most states' general statutes), which this obviously is not.

Security guards, bouncers, rent-a-cops, etc. almost always have exactly the same law enforcement rights as you do - none. To tackle, apprehend, choke, or otherwise bodily harm someone else constitutes, at a minimum, both assault and battery. If it's a plainclothes LEO, we're in an entirely different situation. At that point, you do say yes sir/m'am because resisting arrest can get you in bigger legal trouble, tased, maced, or even shot. But to blindly surrender your rights to some juiced up meathead GDI just because he works for an establishment you're patronizing? No way.

It's problematic, sure, that these guys were unsympathetic to the two brothers being deaf. But my attitude would be exactly the same if the brothers could hear. Security guards broke the law, acted like complete assholes, and almost seriously hurt someone. Should either lose their jobs and a massive civil suit, or have gotten stomped right then and there.

PS - Shit technique anyway.

There's nothing more hilarious than Sherdoggers with absolutely no knowledge of actual laws pretending to be lawyers. You actually think security guards don't have the legal right to stop people who they believe have shop-lifted? Go read the law first before you post such ignorant rambling. It's called a citizen's arrest. Most states, including California, even have special provisions that allow security guards for merchants a few extra rights than normal citizens in such cases. Seriously, go look up the law.

 

[Jdonw]

There's nothing more hilarious than Sherdoggers with absolutely no knowledge of actual laws pretending to be lawyers. You actually think security guards don't have the legal right to stop people who they believe have shop-lifted? Go read the law first before you post such ignorant rambling. It's called a citizen's arrest. Most states, including California, even have special provisions that allow security guards for merchants a few extra rights than normal citizens in such cases. Seriously, go look up the law.

Are you a lawyer?

Citizen's arrest opens the citizen up to the possibilities of lawsuits because he is not a trained police officer protected by the department.

 

[Bebop]

i think the real issue here is: what are these guys doing at forever 21?

 

[Dead Roman]

I wonder how that security guard would have felt if someone flying kneed him in the face while he was doing that shit?

 

[JarMan]

Watch the video again Johnnie Cochran. This time pay attention.

Since you are unable to think logically, I will help you out. See if you can follow this analysis with logic instead of emotion.

The camera man starts filming AFTER the guy is already on the ground. We have no idea what he saw before he started filming except for by the comments he makes later. But let's analyze the comments to see just how credible they are.

First of all, the guy says he filmed the whole thing. Really? Where's the part with the alarm going off? Where is the alleged tackle? Did he get it all on film or not?

Second of all, the guy filming clearly has an agenda. He wants to get the film on tv or on youtube. He is trying to sensationalize what is going on. This is not what you would call a credible witness.

Third of all, the cameraman says the security guard "choked out" the deaf guy. Really? He didn't go unconscious. From my view he wasn't really even getting choked. Perhaps the phrase "choked out" was a slight exaggeration. Maybe the word "tackled" was a slight exaggeration, as well. One man's "choke out" is another man's front headlock. Similarly, one man's tackle is another man's take down.

Fourthly, the guy is silent about what preceeded the alleged tackle. We don't know what confrontation occurred before hand. People are assuming the worst with absolutely zero evidence.

If you need more help understanding things let me know.

 

[JarMan]

Are you a lawyer?

Citizen's arrest opens the citizen up to the possibilities of lawsuits because he is not a trained police officer protected by the department.

Anybody can make an arrest. . . both citizens and law enforcement officers. And both are open to the possibilities of lawsuits if unreasonable force is used. The amount of force permitted for both citizens and law enfocement officers is EXACTLY THE SAME. The difference between the two types of arrest is in what level of evidence or probable cause is needed to affect the arrest.

 

[JarMan]

I wonder how that security guard would have felt if someone flying kneed him in the face while he was doing that shit?

THAT would be assault.

 

[thereddestruby]

Since you are unable to think logically, I will help you out. See if you can follow this analysis with logic instead of emotion.

The camera man starts filming AFTER the guy is already on the ground. We have no idea what he saw before he started filming except for by the comments he makes later. But let's analyze the comments to see just how credible they are.

First of all, the guy says he filmed the whole thing. Really? Where's the part with the alarm going off? Where is the alleged tackle? Did he get it all on film or not?

Second of all, the guy filming clearly has an agenda. He wants to get the film on tv or on youtube. He is trying to sensationalize what is going on. This is not what you would call a credible witness.

Third of all, the cameraman says the security guard "choked out" the deaf guy. Really? He didn't go unconscious. From my view he wasn't really even getting choked. Perhaps the phrase "choked out" was a slight exaggeration. Maybe the word "tackled" was a slight exaggeration, as well. One man's "choke out" is another man's front headlock. Similarly, one man's tackle is another man's take down.

Fourthly, the guy is silent about what preceeded the alleged tackle. We don't know what confrontation occurred before hand. People are assuming the worst with absolutely zero evidence.

If you need more help understanding things let me know.

lol.

 

[Jdonw]

Anybody can make an arrest. . . both citizens and law enforcement officers. And both are open to the possibilities of lawsuits if unreasonable force is used. The amount of force permitted for both citizens and law enfocement officers is EXACTLY THE SAME. The difference between the two types of arrest is in what level of evidence or probable cause is needed to affect the arrest.

Because you avoided the question, I will assume you are not a lawyer. The level of force may be the same, but this video shows a clearly under-trained individual. That fact makes it significantly easier to argue that the force used to restrain was an inappropriate level. If the security also doesn't have an appropriate probable cause it will add to the arguments in a case against him.

But I'm not a lawyer, but I am a big fan of Judge Wapner.

 

[Deathmonkey]

Disgusting!