When/If Democrats regain power, should they resort to the same tactics as the Republicans have?

[Trotsky]

This is a topic that is particularly relevant to middle-of-the-roaders like @Fawlty.

In the mid-1990s, Newt Gingrich came upon the realization that an opposition party would electorally benefit from mindless partisan obstruction, no matter how unprincipled or destructive. By fighting tooth and nail, even against policies they might otherwise support, and rendering government ineffective, they would benefit electorally.

This became standard GOP strategy during the Obama presidency, as the GOP controlled Congress, but the strategy against good faith governance, bipartisan cooperation, and adherence to longstanding precedent on transparency and political responsibility has carried over into the Republicans' current in-power status. This can be best seen in their blatant hypocrisy and refusal to engage in good faith governance on the issues of healthcare and judicial nominations.


During debate on the ACA, Republicans loudly decried the lack of transparency and the lack of bipartisan compromise, despite hundreds of hours of debate and GOP amendments. Then, when trying to pass their own bill (which was universally panned by consumer groups), they actually engaged in the tactics of which they accused the Dems.

Similarly, McConnell and friends bitched and moaned about Kagan and Sotomayor being pushed through, despite the very thorough vetting and disclosure of the nominees, and are now pushing through their nominee in an unprecedented way.

So, when and if Democrats regain power, should we once again ask that they return to the standards of good faith bipartisan governance? If history tells us anything, there is a good chance that the Republicans will continue to obstruct and then, when the GOP regains power, they will resort to the same dirty tricks - and our country will have been made worse for it.

Or should Democrats return the favor and cede the moral high ground to aggressively reverse the insidious and destructive policies pushed by the GOP, and risk an inescapable cycle of unaccountable partisan governance?

 

[TheComebackKid]

Should conservatives resort to the same tactics as Antifa and the obstructionist Democrats?

 

[HomerThompson]

This is a topic that is particularly relevant to middle-of-the-roaders like @Fawlty.

In the mid-1990s, Newt Gingrich came upon the realization that an opposition party would electorally benefit from mindless partisan obstruction, no matter how unprincipled or destructive. By fighting tooth and nail, even against policies they might otherwise support, and rendering government ineffective, they would benefit electorally.

This became standard GOP strategy during the Obama presidency, as the GOP controlled Congress, but the strategy against good faith governance, bipartisan cooperation, and adherence to longstanding precedent on transparency and political responsibility has carried over into the Republicans' current in-power status. This can be best seen in their blatant hypocrisy and refusal to engage in good faith governance on the issues of healthcare and judicial nominations.


During debate on the ACA, Republicans loudly decried the lack of transparency and the lack of bipartisan compromise, despite hundreds of hours of debate and GOP amendments. Then, when trying to pass their own bill (which was universally panned by consumer groups), they actually engaged in the tactics of which they accused the Dems.

Similarly, McConnell and friends bitched and moaned about Kagan and Sotomayor being pushed through, despite the very thorough vetting and disclosure of the nominees, and are now pushing through their nominee in an unprecedented way.

So, when and if Democrats regain power, should we once again ask that they return to the standards of good faith bipartisan governance? If history tells us anything, there is a good chance that the Republicans will continue to obstruct and then, when the GOP regains power, they will resort to the same dirty tricks - and our country will have been made worse for it.

Or should Democrats return the favor and cede the moral high ground to aggressively reverse the insidious and destructive policies pushed by the GOP, and risk an inescapable cycle of unaccountable partisan governance?

Dear Republicans:

 

[Ripskater]

Should conservatives resort to the same tactics as Antifa and the obstructionist Democrats?

Like

 

[Quequeg]

Should conservatives resort to the same tactics as Antifa and the obstructionist Democrats?

Is Antifa in govt,? stupid.

 

[Ripskater]

reverse the insidious and destructive policies pushed by the GOP, and risk an inescapable cycle of unaccountable partisan governance?

Which Trump/GOP policies are insidious and destructive?

 

[Islam Imamate]

This is a topic that is particularly relevant to middle-of-the-roaders like @Fawlty.

In the mid-1990s, Newt Gingrich came upon the realization that an opposition party would electorally benefit from mindless partisan obstruction, no matter how unprincipled or destructive. By fighting tooth and nail, even against policies they might otherwise support, and rendering government ineffective, they would benefit electorally.

This became standard GOP strategy during the Obama presidency, as the GOP controlled Congress, but the strategy against good faith governance, bipartisan cooperation, and adherence to longstanding precedent on transparency and political responsibility has carried over into the Republicans' current in-power status. This can be best seen in their blatant hypocrisy and refusal to engage in good faith governance on the issues of healthcare and judicial nominations.


During debate on the ACA, Republicans loudly decried the lack of transparency and the lack of bipartisan compromise, despite hundreds of hours of debate and GOP amendments. Then, when trying to pass their own bill (which was universally panned by consumer groups), they actually engaged in the tactics of which they accused the Dems.

Similarly, McConnell and friends bitched and moaned about Kagan and Sotomayor being pushed through, despite the very thorough vetting and disclosure of the nominees, and are now pushing through their nominee in an unprecedented way.

So, when and if Democrats regain power, should we once again ask that they return to the standards of good faith bipartisan governance? If history tells us anything, there is a good chance that the Republicans will continue to obstruct and then, when the GOP regains power, they will resort to the same dirty tricks - and our country will have been made worse for it.

Or should Democrats return the favor and cede the moral high ground to aggressively reverse the insidious and destructive policies pushed by the GOP, and risk an inescapable cycle of unaccountable partisan governance?

I don't think I want more obstructionism in government so I'd say no.

 

[sub_thug]

Have you ever argued in good faith or sought the high ground? What makes anyone think you'll start now?

 

[Trotsky]

Should conservatives resort to the same tactics as Antifa and the obstructionist Democrats?

Well, that's hard to answer. Answer me two questions:

(1) What evidence do you have for "obstructionist Democrats"? Even if they wanted to be obstructionist, they couldn't be because they lack the numbers in either houses of Congress.

(2) Is Antifa in government? Can you point to what effect Antifa has had on lawmaking procedure?

Have you ever argued in good faith or sought the high ground? What makes anyone think you'll start now?

Full deflection. It's almost as if your kind is incapable of addressing issues or recognizing flaws within your tribe.

See my above response to TCK for arguing in good faith and seeking to take the high road. That is, of course, also completely irrelevant to political procedure. Asking citizens to "argue in good faith" is completely different than asking elected officials to govern in good faith and respect law making procedure.

Maybe you knew that and were purposefully trying to chidlishly deflect and obfuscate. Or maybe you're just that dumb, that anything that touches upon partisan politics equates to just shit slinging to you.

 

[Lord Coke]

This is a topic that is particularly relevant to middle-of-the-roaders like @Fawlty.

In the mid-1990s, Newt Gingrich came upon the realization that an opposition party would electorally benefit from mindless partisan obstruction, no matter how unprincipled or destructive. By fighting tooth and nail, even against policies they might otherwise support, and rendering government ineffective, they would benefit electorally.

This became standard GOP strategy during the Obama presidency, as the GOP controlled Congress, but the strategy against good faith governance, bipartisan cooperation, and adherence to longstanding precedent on transparency and political responsibility has carried over into the Republicans' current in-power status. This can be best seen in their blatant hypocrisy and refusal to engage in good faith governance on the issues of healthcare and judicial nominations.


During debate on the ACA, Republicans loudly decried the lack of transparency and the lack of bipartisan compromise, despite hundreds of hours of debate and GOP amendments. Then, when trying to pass their own bill (which was universally panned by consumer groups), they actually engaged in the tactics of which they accused the Dems.

Similarly, McConnell and friends bitched and moaned about Kagan and Sotomayor being pushed through, despite the very thorough vetting and disclosure of the nominees, and are now pushing through their nominee in an unprecedented way.

So, when and if Democrats regain power, should we once again ask that they return to the standards of good faith bipartisan governance? If history tells us anything, there is a good chance that the Republicans will continue to obstruct and then, when the GOP regains power, they will resort to the same dirty tricks - and our country will have been made worse for it.

Or should Democrats return the favor and cede the moral high ground to aggressively reverse the insidious and destructive policies pushed by the GOP, and risk an inescapable cycle of unaccountable partisan governance?

My understanding is those numbers are deceptive.
My understanding is that there was a stipulation that many of Kagan's documents would not be released so 99% only refers to the documents in dispute. This is just something I saw on Fox. I haven't studied this issue.

As to the question presented, it would be in the interest of the people voting for them to have a scorch earth policy and politicians should do what is in the best interest of the people who voted them in to office in my opinion That said there is another body of thought that says politicians should do what is best for the country in general.

 

[Fawlty]

This thread will be nothing but sorry-assed deflecting, seen above, but it's an interesting question.

I don't really care as long as it's about policy. Health care first. Then infrastructure.

It wouldn't be that wrong to fuck the Republicans at every turn. It's self defense at the worst.

 

[sub_thug]

Well, that's hard to answer. Answer me two questions:

(1) What evidence do you have for "obstructionist Democrats"? Even if they wanted to be obstructionist, they couldn't be because they lack the numbers in either houses of Congress.

(2) Is Antifa in government? Can you point to what effect Antifa has had on lawmaking procedure?



Full deflection. It's almost as if your kind is incapable of addressing issues or recognizing flaws within your tribe.

See my above response to TCK for arguing in good faith and seeking to take the high road.

My kind? What the hell is that supposed to mean? You sound super intolerant...

Doesn't really pertain to me. Sounds like you just want to misrepresent facts so that you can try to "win." I'm shocked, as usual...

 

[snakedafunky]

Morally or from a political view?
From a political side, I think they would have done well if not for Hillary.
I don't see why they should change their political strategy of at least trying to get things done.

 

[Falsedawn]

As much as I think those pieces of shit deserve it, no. Someone has to be the adult in the room.

I wouldn't be opposed to being incredibly heavy handed with rectifying those giant gaping holes that we call political norms though. Don't reward bad behavior with inaction. They have to feel some pain for basically destroying our political process for the last 3 decades.

If I could REALLY have my druthers though, impeaching Gorsuch would be on the agenda. Kavanaugh (presumably) would be legitimate, Gorsuch has no right to hold the seat he currently does.

 

[ChainFlow]

As much as I think those pieces of shit deserve it, no. Someone has to be the adult in the room.

I wouldn't be opposed to being incredibly heavy handed with rectifying those giant gaping holes that we call political norms though. Don't reward bad behavior with inaction. They have to feel some pain for basically destroying our political process for the last 3 decades.

If I could REALLY have my druthers though, impeaching Gorsuch would be on the agenda. Kavanaugh (presumably) would be legitimate, Gorsuch has no right to hold the seat he currently does.

Kavanaugh has already perjured himself before Congress. He’s impeachable.

 

[Trotsky]

Which Trump/GOP policies are insidious and destructive?

(1) Removing financial sector regulations that protect against 2008-like economic collapses, and protect consumers, retirees, and lendees from exploitation and trickery by financial services
(2) Exploding the deficit without providing realistic prospects of long-term growth to offset the losses
(3) Ceding control of public policy to corporate and industry interests, diametrical to the interests and wishes of consumer and public-interest groups

See: Putting financial predators in charge of the Treasury, putting oil lobbyists in charge of the EPA, putting private school profiteers in charge of Education, etc.​

(4) Weakening consumer oversight of corporate malfeasance
(5) Weakening citizen standing to seek redress from corporate torts
(6) Removing worker protections and busting workers' power to collectively bargain
(7) Taking actions that are empirically proven to disenfranchise voters, for the purpose of addressing an issue that has repeatedly been shown to lack any meaningful incidence (noncitizen voting)
(8) Attempting to throw millions off healthcare and raise prices/lower standards of care for the rest of us, all so that insurance companies can make more money
(9) Further degrading campaign finance transparency and protections so that legalized bribery of the government can become more widespread
(10) Reallocating government subsidies away from viable long-term energy and onto increasingly-obsolete forms of energy

 

[Trotsky]

My kind? What the hell is that supposed to mean? You sound super intolerant...

Your kind, as in members of the side you shamelessly defend. Also, your kind, as in those who have no interest in actual policy discussion.

EDIT: Also, there are right-wingers who I respect because they are mature adults who respond in good faith. See alanb's post quoting me.

Doesn't really pertain to me. Sounds like you just want to misrepresent facts so that you can try to "win." I'm shocked, as usual...

This is coming from the guy who came in here with no intention (or even pretenses) of actually debating the issue. You only came in to lob ad hominems.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

That said there is another body of thought that says politicians should do what is best for the country in general.

Some of us are dreamers.

 

[Falsedawn]

Kavanaugh has already perjured himself before Congress. He’s impeachable.

Very fair, I meant more on a procedural basis though. Merrick Garland should have been considered by the senate for the supreme court, and the simple fact that he wasn't is probably the most egregious stain on our democracy committed by the GOP (and that's the head of a long list of disgraceful behavior). In my hypothetical "impeach Gorsuch" scenario, Garland has first right of refusal, and i'd burn down every justice put up until he said "Know what, i'm good. Pick someone else". It's the principle of the matter to me.

 

[zebby23]

Which Trump/GOP policies are insidious and destructive?

Merrick Garland, jamming through Supreme Court picks, gerrymandering, not upholding the law, turning a blind eye to incompetence, shutting down the house investigation into Russian interference to name a few.

I’m torn on this issue though. Dems should not lower themselves to the standard of Republicans but playing nice isn’t winning elections and republicans don’t give a shit how low they go so I say fight fire with fire