When has 'size' not mattered for a dominant champ?

[RemoWilliams1a**]

What a dumb horrible thread. Not one person ever said Fedor's size was an advantage for him what a fucking joke. The Jones fans are really exposing themselves today.

you are factually 100% wrong.

the discussions during Fedors dominance were clear in defining that MMA was not as tailored to strikers and the shorter, stalkier grapplers build with a grappler who cross trained and adapted good striking was better then a tall lanky striker who cross trained in grappling.

the belief was centered around a powerful grappler always being able to td and control the lankier fighter an avoid subs with more powerful limbs.

 

[OldManGrip]

and we can site all sorts of guys who were on the bigger powerful size side of the division who also were not more dominant then guys like Penn, Edgar, etc.

So it is not being tall and lanky (thin) or tall and powerful. maybe then the defining factor is not frame or size at all as so many would put emphasis on. maybe it is mostly about the SKILL first to use whatever size you have, with the proportions of your body being a distant second.

well your obviously right but people love their theories. Cormier dominates in wrestling bc of his build, but would most likely be at a disadvantage in k1. Obviously tall and lanky is not the best bc most of them lose. Jones is different bc he is very strong for being tall and sort of lanky. I think on first appearance one may think he would be easy to takedown

 

[mungos]

lol.

shorter, stalkier guys who retain athleticism (prime Fedor, Cain, Cormier) has advantages in the cage.

lol.
Ridicilous. Look at average UFC fighters' height per weight division. Why do fighters cut weight? Some even cut height. its glaring you don't train ufc bro.

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

He fought Machida at HW, that's what the post alluded to.

it just a dumb thing to elude to.

the Penn/Machida fight was an over weight embarrassment to them both.

They both have looked like 10 times the fighter before and since that fight and in no way should that fight be held up as a positive for either of them. Machida was still knew to the sport and thought he was fighting a Maia like bjj phenom who he needed to fear any clinch with, so he fought fat BJ how Bj is best. A very cautious outside boxing match.

 

[thechoice2]

What a dumb horrible thread. Not one person ever said Fedor's size was an advantage for him what a fucking joke. The Jones fans are really exposing themselves today.

This is not true at all, I saw plenty of posts on Sherdog about how Fedor's stocky build was ideal for grappling and it made him difficult to control. People talked about how quick he was because he was a "small" HW and how that gave him a speed advantage over guys bigger than him.

 

[Flying RNC]

Velasquez is a example , beating bigger Hw then himself.

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

lol.
Ridicilous. Look at average UFC fighters' height per weight division. Why do fighters cut weight? Some even cut height. its glaring you don't train ufc bro.

lol.

Ridiculous. A look at all the champs in MMA history shows clearly that being near the average (whether slightly bigger or smaller) is where the advantage lay. Not being near the biggest or smallest in the division where the disadvantages tend to outweigh the advantages as history has proven.

A few guys like Jones and Edgar breaking the mold is not proof of anything other then they may have MORE SKILL to over come what for everyone else with those proportions has been a disadvantage.

 

[OldManGrip]

This is not true at all, I saw plenty of posts on Sherdog about how Fedor's stocky build was ideal for grappling and it made him difficult to control. People talked about how quick he was because he was a "small" HW and how that gave him a speed advantage over guys bigger than him.

i saw those threads on here too back in the pride era

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

Velasquez is not an example , beating bigger Hw then himself.

fixed your post as proven above.

Unless you are one who simply believes always having bigger body proportions is always better.

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

This is not true at all, I saw plenty of posts on Sherdog about how Fedor's stocky build was ideal for grappling and it made him difficult to control. People talked about how quick he was because he was a "small" HW and how that gave him a speed advantage over guys bigger than him.

Fedors size, allowing him speed, his power and thickness (neck, arms, legs, shoulders, back, etc) , allowing him to bully the tall lanky striker type and power out of subs was always talked about as ideal.

it was a clear part of the defining discussion between top MMA fighters and strikers where many made the argument that the grappling element of MMA made a more stalky powerful build more ideal then in the none clinch, grappling arts.

He obviously has no clue what he is talking about.

when fedor went into the fight with Semmy no one was like 'oh shit, that guy is tall and lanky with reach, Fedor is in big trouble'. We all assumed if Semmy showed any advantage at all standing fedor would simply grapple him, put him on his back and beat him easily there.

If fedor had Semmy body with Fedors fight style, I would have taken Semmy to kick box him to death. It was because of Fedors stalky powerful build and skills to use that, that he was seen as best.

 

[mungos]

lol.

Ridiculous. A look at all the champs in MMA history shows clearly that being near the average (whether slightly bigger or smaller) is where the advantage lay. Not being near the biggest or smallest in the division where the disadvantages tend to outweigh the advantages as history has proven.

A few guys like Jones and Edgar breaking the mold is not proof of anything other then they may have MORE SKILL to over come what for everyone else with those proportions has been a disadvantage.

stawman.
fighters are getting bigger - cutting more weight. As for HW limiting factor is cardio.

 

[hto63]

Frankie Edgar?

the problem with Frankie is he really only beat 2 guys as a champ before a much bigger, stronger man came along and took the title from him.



Size is an important factor to explain a champ's dominance as evidenced by the success of guys like Bendo, GSP, Anderson Silva, Aldo, even Barao who fought on the same card as Jones -and cuts more more pound TOTAL than Jones does apparently - lol

 

[Mr. Fresca]

lol.
Ridicilous. Look at average UFC fighters' height per weight division. Why do fighters cut weight? Some even cut height. its glaring you don't train ufc bro.

Lol. Proof that shorter fighters have an advantage, the Carwin height cut!

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

stawman.
fighters are getting bigger - cutting more weight. As for HW limiting factor is cardio.

you need to look up what strawman mean as there was none there.

You point to 'fighters' as proof. I point to 'champs' as proof. Champs are a better subset of examining what works.

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

the problem with Frankie is he really only beat 2 guys as a champ before a much bigger, stronger man came along and took the title from him.



Size is an important factor to explain a champ's dominance as evidenced by the success of guys like Bendo, GSP, Anderson Silva, Aldo, even Barao who fought on the same card as Jones -and cuts more more pound TOTAL than Jones does apparently - lol

no one is denying a bigger size can be an important factor for those who know how to use it and who have the skill.

it can be.

Just as a smaller size can be an important factor for those who know how to use it and have the skill.

The issue is acting like being tall and lanky and on the bigger side of the division in that regard is some skillless gift or skill diminished gift when the history of our sport has shown us in fact that being on the tall and lanky and on the bigger side of any divisions is something to over come and might need a higher level of skill to do so.

Most of the best guys fit within a tight and clear average divisional size with a few guys breaking in to the small side and few to the big side. But generally the 'best' are within that average size for the top guys.

 

[gspieler]

Size is an advantage. Why do the vast majority of fighters cut weight? Spin it however you want, being larger, ie having more lean mass, is an inherent advantage to have in mma. Providing a few counter-examples like Fedor or BJ, who also just happen to be among the best of all time, does not change that.

 

[RemoWilliams1a**]

Size is an advantage. Why do the vast majority of fighters cut weight? Spin it however you want, being larger, ie having more lean mass, is an inherent advantage to have in mma. Providing a few counter-examples like Fedor or BJ, who also just happen to be among the best of all time, does not change that.

Sure size CAN BE an advantage to a DEGREE. But there are limits and the statement cannot be taken as a blanket one. But being towards the bigger and lankier side of the division has generally not been an advantage prior to Jones. If anything the history of this sport suggests guys with big lanky builds will struggle as the also big but more stalky and muscular bully them.

History has shown us that you want to be towards the big end of normal for a division but neither the biggest or smallest in that range, otherwise you would might need more skill then the other guys to overcome that.

 

[Xavier85]

BJ Penn?

 

[DysDave]

Someone mentioned that builds relate to styles, and this is spot on. Being tall and skilled doesn't make you better than someone short and skilled- unless they have the wrong style against you.

To elaborate, Machida and Shogun are short fighters that like to fight at range, particularly on the counter. This plays right into a tall fighters game, because reach is such a big deal. It's a testament to Machida's striking that he was able to match Jones for a round, and indeed be so successful at LHW for so long- he doesn't have the ideal build for that style.

Cormier, by contrast, likes to bullrush and bully in the clinch. He has the ideal build for that- short, stocky and solid. Hard to sub, can hit hard without much room needed. Jones has to rely solely on his elbows in close, which while devastating- are still only one strike.

Jones uses his tools perfectly for his game. But his success stems from his dominant wrestling coupled with reach- the fighter that beats him will be a shorter, stronger wrestler that can fight in close.

If Cormier cuts the weight effectively, he can beat Jones- I'm 100% confident. Just being tall is not the only good body type in MMA.

 

[Phrozenspite]

BJ Penn