When has 'size' not mattered for a dominant champ?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by RemoWilliams1a**, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    When Fedor was seen as the best in the world many felt his build of being stalky and powerfully built was ideal for MMA. The shorter more powerful limbs were tougher to submit and they made submitting others easier.

    No one said 'oh poor Fedor that Semmy Schilt is going to reach him to death' because it was thought a more powerfully built Fedor would be able to muscle his way in to the inside and bully the taller lankier fighter.

    Unlike boxing where being tall and lanky had shown many benefits, the same was not the case or belief for MMA.

    It was BECAUSE of Fedors build and his ability to use it that he has so successful.


    does anyone now think that if BJ or Edgar or Bendo or Pettis instead had Corey Hill or Nate Diaz build they would have been that much more dangerous and better?

    What about Cain or JDS at HW? Would they be that much better with Struve's build?


    tl:dr - every dominant champ must learn to maximize the benefits and weaknesses of every body style as both exist. And it is the skill that defines the champs and separates them from the masses, not the body style if it was about a body shape/size then we would see that shape/size tending to dominate the top reaches of every division and we do not.
     
  2. shelterdog

    shelterdog Green Belt

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    Frankie Edgar?
     
  3. welcometohavoc

    welcometohavoc Yellow Card

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    I've never heard of people saying Fedor's size was an advantage. And BJ Penn is a freak of nature, the guy has been competitive fighting as high as HW.
     
  4. Hans Gercmiov

    Hans Gercmiov Steel Belt

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    He came to mind initially, but I wouldn't consider Edgar dominate personally.
     
  5. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    do you honestly believe Frankie would have been better as a bigger fighter? If he had Corey Hills or nate Diaz' build do you automatically see him as champ?

    Do you not think in the universe of fighters you will find some guys who benefit the most being the smaller, faster guy?

    is that not my initial point that different guys will learn to use their own attributes to the max and they would not automatically benefit by being taller and lankier?
     
  6. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    Well you must be new to MMA or missed a lot of the talk back then.

    For years and years Fedors build was seen as perfect for MMA in contrast to boxing where taller, more lanky fighters often had great success.

    the belief was the taller, lankier guys lacked the power to keep the powerful grappler built guys off them and would always be put on their backs.
     
  7. mrsinister

    mrsinister Brown Belt

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  8. Mr. Fresca

    Mr. Fresca Thanks for playing

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    I agree. Bas used to say that Igor had the perfect build for mma.

    They used to say that Fedor's broad shoulders and stout neck made it difficult to catch him in submissions.

    Every build has positives and negatives. Jones is probably just he most successful at utilizing his advantages. It was obvious that fighting someone with his range took a lot of his normal game away.

    The whole concept of this being unfair because he is tall is silly though. The negative is that he is more susceptible to arm bars and being tall should potentially make him more susceptible to freestyle wrestling techniques. Unfortunately he is just that damn good at wrestling.
     
  9. Reign009

    Reign009 Not sure if serious.

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    Good thread TS. I'd like to add that Mighty Mouse may be the smallest FLW and is the best. Also Cain and JDS aren't the biggest HWs and neither are GSP and Silva for their respective weight classes.
     
  10. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    you don't think Tyson size and build mattered to his fight style?

    you think he is automatically better and more dominant if he was a tall lanky HW?

    Really?
     
  11. Jagan Eye

    Jagan Eye Purple Belt

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    Fedor is the first guy that comes to mind. Was always the smalller man at HW.
     
  12. memling

    memling Blue Belt

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    Corey Hill was like, honestly past Anorexic to be honest.
     
  13. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    I think Jones has been so hard to deal with as fighters had not trained to fight someone as good and skilled as he was at his game. No one really expected that frame and build to be so hard to over come (Shogun will break his chicken legs with a kick, a powerful grappler like Cormier (or Sonnen, lol) will put him on his back.

    It was not the common wisdom that his fight build could be so dominant.

    I think the division will get better and adapt as guys train specifically to deal with someone with Jones tools.
     
  14. mrsinister

    mrsinister Brown Belt

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    You're redefining size to mean all physical attributes. All great athletes adapt to their build, that doesn't mean they all have a "size" advantage. "Size" advantage is meaningless if the term applies even to guys who are smaller.
     
  15. welcometohavoc

    welcometohavoc Yellow Card

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    Actually I've been following MMA for years. One of the things that most impressed people about Fedor is that he was fighting guys much taller and heavier than he was, and under the right circumstances, he could be fighting at LHW.
     
  16. daniel san

    daniel san Brown Belt

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    Uhm, no. That has not been the case. First and foremost, at the time when Fedor ruled, there were very few skilled super heavyweights. Most elite HWs were around Fedor's weight and size, though Fedor of course almost always was the smaller guy. Some have said that Fedor had speed, but now you're just making things up.

    Size is not the most important thing as Jones would never have become champ if he didn't have his amazing tool set. However, it's quite evident that his success also lies in his extreme reach advantage. Having a size disadvantage never helps but doesn't mean you can't succeed. Just look at Edgar, or guys like Shogun and Machida whom both are very small LHWs compared to what's "optimal".
     
  17. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    so you are simply assuming that 'being the smaller guy' could not be a benefit and yet the guy who was smaller then everyone was dominating. Strange. it would seem Fedor proved it was a benefit.
     
  18. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    why?

    What makes you or anyone think that the only physical advantages are being bigger and lankier?

    Why can't being smaller and faster? Or smaller and more compactly and powerfully built also be an advantage?

    it seems many have put blinders on and assume every single human is the same and all will benefit from the same thing. That is wrong. You are wrong.
     
  19. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    again this silly and repeated idea that bigger is automatically better.

    I guess we have to say we are at an impasse if posters actually think it is as simple as bigger=better therefore any time a smaller guy with different attributes beats a bigger guy it is skill but when the bigger guy wins it is size.

    that notion is false on its face but if guys cannot comprehend why then there is no real point in discussing this issue with them.
     
  20. RemoWilliams1a**

    RemoWilliams1a** Banned Banned

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    as Fedors extreme success was obvious due in large part to his powerful stalky build.

    he could dive into the best submission guys of his era's guard and just power past their sub attempts and land vicious GnP. THAT WAS BECAUSE OF HIS SHORTER POWERFUL BUILD and skill. he could close in on tall lanky fighters like Semmy and muscle them and THAT WAS BECAUSE OF HIS SHORTER POWERFUL BUILD.

    you honestly have no clue what you watched if you do not think fedor's build was key to his success and you are now thinking it would have been unfair if he had Semmy's build as then he really would have dominated.
     

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