What's your opinion on IBJJF's no knee reaping rule

[randomg1t]

The vast majority of people competing at ADCC, EBI, and Metamoris are black belts, with the rest browns and VERY few purples. And those purples are top of the line that would be brown at most other schools. You start letting run of the mill, casual purple belts heel hook and you will see LOTS of blown knees.

People can laugh off or tap at a GQ or NAGA, but when you are at an IBJJF event people are going to push their limits and that is where injuries occur.

you will see lots of blown knees because people don't know shit about leglocks, they don't know the mechanics or the proper defenses. so what happens is they don't defend it, but they don't tap to it either. that's where the trouble starts.

but justifying the ban with this argument is dense. heel hooks need to be banned because people don't know how to use them responsibly... because they're banned. i've seen a local ADCC rules tournament, where you had people from blue belt to black belt - leglocks were thrown around in every match and not one of them resulted in injuries.

now you obviously don't want people completely new to the sport doing these moves, but anyone at purple belt level or above knows what they're doing. they've pretty much seen it all already, there's no need to assume they're mindless idiots who will just tear each other's knees out.

as for people pushing to their limits in IBJJF finals, i fail to see how it's any different when they're caught in any other submission. you don't think they're pushing to their limits with armbars, kimuras, kneebars?

 

[brendan raedy]

I remember Kip Kollar giving the same speech a couple times in that talk he gives competitors before a NAGA event addressing this issue.

He basically said that shoulder injuries were the most common injury in competition, and that if the competitors safety was the main concern, they should ban Kimuras and keylocks. If I remember correctly knee injuries weren't even second, I think that fell on cervical injuries from guillotines.

It makes me wonder what the rationale for the IBJJF banning reaps and heel hooks was. I mean at the time NAGA had been around for much longer, and had access to these statistics. I would imagine the IBJJF would have similar statistics. Why would they make such an arbitrary descision.

Anyways I totally agree it is a needless rule.

Did Kipp give a source for that data? Does NAGA keep track of injuries and disseminate their findings? If so, does that include injuries that were reported only? Is there any method of following up with athletes? What if injured athletes choose not to disclose? Ditto for the IBJJF.

NAGA's branding, rules, and market position put them in a position to minimize the danger of those submissions. IBJJF largely the opposite. Heel hooks 10-15 years ago were viewed as dangerous and non-mainstream, which for an upstart company makes sense. For the newly family friendly and socially responsible IBJJF, it makes sense to keep them out. I think a lot of people go to NAGA to heel hook, and a lot of people go to IBJJF because they know they can't get heel hooked. Changing that could be bad for business.

I've seen some good arguments regarding reaping such as the similar effect on the knee of DLR and RDLR, but the reaping rules were put into place when those positions were much less prevalent.

I think black belts are adults and experts and should be allowed to do any submission they want. For the others, unless I see persuasive, well sourced data and medical science, play it safe.

 

[brendan raedy]

I would put all my money that Cobrinha/Rafa Mendes have vastly superior leg locks to anyone complaining about heel hook rules/reaping on the internet.

Probably, but there are some really good leg lockers out there. That said, good luck GETTING to Cobrinha or Rafa's legs. And once there, we have seen Rafa has some INSANE flexibility and/our toughness.

 

[bob]

Its almost as shit as having to wear specific colourd shorts and rash gaurds. Fuck ifbjj.

 

[tenktriangles]

I take the sambo view- it's more controlled with reaping and ultimately leads to less stupid escape attempts. Plus it's a hard rule to enforce and guys will pull a foot into a reap and try to get the dq.

 

[ChainFlow]

I would put all my money that Cobrinha/Rafa Mendes have vastly superior leg locks to anyone complaining about heel hook rules/reaping on the internet.

Wouldn't the fact that they DO USE reaps to set up heel hooks and toe holds (when they are permitted) indicate that the people saying reaping is useful and important are correct?

 

[lechien]

Did Kipp give a source for that data? Does NAGA keep track of injuries and disseminate.

I think black belts are adults and experts and should be allowed to do any submission they want. For the others, unless I see persuasive, well sourced data and medical science, play it safe.

Since they are already other competition format that offer reaping and hh.

Why the need for ibjjf to change to their standards.?

 

[yetanother]

Wouldn't the fact that they DO USE reaps to set up heel hooks and toe holds (when they are permitted) indicate that the people saying reaping is useful and important are correct?

Heel hooks are useful in competitions that allow them.
They are useless and unimportant in IBJJF competitions.
I consider jiu jitsu mostly useless outside competitions.

I see tons of crazy battles were people are cranking heel hooks and spinning out of them like crazy.
A lot of the time someone is limping out of the mat after that.
I don't think it's smart for me to take part in heel hook wars for free.

 

[combatcvic]

I know some of the rules seem shitty, but its one of the largest events in Jiu Jitsu. To me that means being able to sign up for pans, worlds, masters worlds, and having a decent little bracket.

brown master 1 ultra heavy has a full 12 guys, compared to pans where blue adult middle had like 90+ , 12 is actually large for most events. I think brown worlds didnt even have 12.

Many tournaments have 2 or less. I'll abide by the no reap rule to try and get more matches.

 

[selfcritical]

Reaping heel hooks yes.
Reaping ankle lock I haven't seen much.
It seems a bit artificial to allow reaping without heel hooks.

It's because Heel Hooks are faster than ankle locks and have more mechanical advantage. Reaping helps ankle locks just fine, it's just that if you can heel hook, it's usually the tactical better bet. If you want to work the positional control without as much risk to your partners, then reaping ankle locks are a pretty good tool to use.

Also the ankle locks have a better plan b, because you're holding the guys goddamn leg.

 

[Calibur]

Heel hooks are useful in competitions that allow them.
They are useless and unimportant in IBJJF competitions.
I consider jiu jitsu mostly useless outside competitions.

I see tons of crazy battles were people are cranking heel hooks and spinning out of them like crazy.
A lot of the time someone is limping out of the mat after that.
I don't think it's smart for me to take part in heel hook wars for free.

Fortunately, heel hooks and reaping are not the same thing.

I might've mentioned that already.

 

[FatherSauce]

I like what Reilly Bodycomb did at the seminar I went to. Early on he had us get into a hurdlers stretch type of position and then pointed out that we had all just reaped our own knees and no one was headed to the hospital.

 

[kenpeters8]

IBJJF needs to allow knee reaping, heel hook for brown belt division and up, and also penalize guard pulling -2 points.

 

[BajaMaliKnindza]

rules are fine just the way the are imo

 

[number9dream]

rules are fine just the way the are imo

There'll come a day when people look back at reaping being banned and shake their heads, asking themselves wtf those old timers (us) were thinking.

 

[kenpeters8]

What year did IBJJF banned knee reaping anyways?

 

[Submission]

What year did IBJJF banned knee reaping anyways?

2006 I guess

 

[davou]

and also penalize guard pulling -2 points.

omg no. Why would you argue in favor of adding something like reaping which opens up the game so enormously, and then in the same breath suggest they remove such a profoundly MORE huge part of bjj?

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

I don't see any reason why two black belts, at the highest level, should be prohibited from using every sort of control or attack available.

 

[Gambledub]

If you think the current reaping rules are ok, I question your moral fibre as a human being.