What's the future of Trump's supporters and the Republican party?

[terrapin]

hiya spacegnome,

i am.

you want to hold Mr. Biden accountable, right? i'm just laying out the limits of a party that doesn't control the Senate and doesn't have a sympathetic ear when it comes to the SCOTUS.

i'm just suggesting that progressives might want to be reasonable as to what is possible.

- IGIT

again none of this addresses what i think. sorry man im not trying to be rude, its as if you are talking to someone else you have a history with and not me. something is off but not on my end.

how about addressing the rest of that post though?

 

[IGIT]

again none of this addresses what i think. sorry man im not trying to be rude, its as if you are talking to someone else you have a history with and not me. something is off but not on my end,

how about addressing the rest of that post though?

hello again spacegnome,

i've written about the limits of what a Biden administration can accomplish given the realities of the filibuster and the composition of the SCOTUS.

do you acknowledge these limitations?

if you do, we can continue. if you ignore what i've written, i'd prefer to stay on this point my friend.

sound good?

- IGIT

 

[kpt018]

glad we found common ground even if we don't agree completely. please read my last comment to IGIT as it is really the sources of the likely threat of radicalization and the inevitable violence that will stem from it that i think needs to be addressed and quickly before we cross some lines we do not want to cross in this country.

post 417.

I agree with the spirit of it. Even if many of those folks are delusional to a degree, the way they feel is real and there is some merit to it. I share those concerns, but I'm not sure they're redeemable.

 

[terrapin]

hello again spacegnome,

i've written about the limits of what a Biden administration can accomplish given the realities of the filibuster and the composition of the SCOTUS.

do you acknowledge these limitations?

if you do, we can continue. if you ignore what i've written, i'd prefer to stay on this point my friend.

sound good?

- IGIT

of course i do. the thing is i cant understand why you keep assuming i don't already have that knowledge base....... its just feels like you are talking to a caricature or an ideal of what you think i think and not me. its off and off putting.

and you still have not addressed what i am interested in having you address and that seems very one sided......

 

[Denter]

If you consider people with different political views to be enemies I think you need to reevaluate your life.

Sir, it's Carl Schmitt on the phone, he needs to speak with you.

 

[terrapin]

I agree with the spirit of it. Even if many of those folks are delusional to a degree, the way they feel is real and there is some merit to it. I share those concerns, but I'm not sure they're redeemable.

i think with a good job and a fair share of the pie they could not be bothered to cause any real trouble. economic disparity is the root of it all imo and if we address that problem it all goes way (the possibility of violence anyway) but who is really interested in doing that?

 

[kpt018]

Sir, it's Carl Schmitt on the phone, he needs to speak with you.

Ok, I agree there's a place for calling political opponents enemies. When Biden starts gassing dudes I will agree!

 

[WalkenWouldOwn]

hello there spacegnome,



what does that mean, to "fight for" UHC? i mean, does it involve taking to the streets and bashing heads in?

my memory is a little hazy on who kpt018 supported in the primaries for 2020 - though i think he was behind Mrs. Warren (as was I). what else is there to do?

i certainly wasn't going to mimic the "never Hillary" voters who sat 2016 out or voted 3rd party, since i consider those folk imbeciles. think of the rationale of those morons, spacegnome. they were essentially saying, "if i can't get what i want, i'll accept the opposite (a Trump victory) of what i want."

that's how children reason, not adults.


when i consider the misrepresenting that Mrs. Clinton endured in 2016, i cannot think this has had no effect on voters especially the less educated or savvy ones.

*salutes*

- IGIT

Warren is the best. Can we Warren supporters call ourselves The Warren Commission?

 

[IGIT]

hiya spacegnome,

i think somebody needs to stand up for the working man really quick. i think the average blue collar worker feels left behind and not valued. when you add the economic disaster that corona virus has had no the economy this disparity is only going to get worse.

i agree.

the thing is, i don't get the sense that most "working men" are intelligent enough to grasp when something is being done for them.

when President Obama is discussed, all i hear about is how is he lineal descendant of the hated Bill Clinton. like, Mr. Obama was just another neoliberal tool. and yet...

Mitt Romney may be right about President Obama’s Robin Hood tendencies. Future historians could well conclude that Mr. Obama led the biggest redistribution of wealth in decades.
The Affordable Care Act, which levies new taxes on the wealthy to expand access to health care for the near poor, seems on track to become the biggest increase in government redistribution since the Johnson administration.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/...ys-redistribution-debate-has-a-gray-area.html

*shrugs*

i have to admit, i have a pretty low opinion of the US electorate in general, both the right and the left.

that leaves it on our shoulders to address and i fear that any attempts or just the perception of marginally trying to do something while appeasing the donor class my very well lead to catastrophe.

i don't know where i fall on this spectrum. i'm not part of the donor class (that is to say, i'm not dumping my life savings into one party or the other), yet i do own stock in Apple. in Exxon Mobil. in Merck (alot of Merck, actually). at the dawn of the Obama administration, i invested in coal (bad bet).

i think as long as GOP blue collar voters get hoodwinked into voting, year after year, against their own economic self interest, alot of this is academic.

- IGIT

 

[MeatheadMike]

Socially yes, economically no. There was a hard right turn during the late 80s and 90s. Democrats used to be the working class party.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democrats

The Clinton Democrats/neoliberals still control the party.

I think this has to do more with faults of our system than ideology. Basically Democrats must win over a larger set of centrists to win elections than Republicans.

This has to do with the fact that voters living in cities (who usually vote Democrat) are marginalized by several aspects of our system (electoral college, capping house of representatives seats since 1929 despite population increase, and limitation of 2 seats to all states in the senate) . This gives greater voice to people in more rural states/areas (who tend to vote Republican) and which Democrats must win over along with their base.

 

[Oeshon]

4 more years

 

[terrapin]

hiya spacegnome,



i agree.

the thing is, i don't get the sense that most "working men" are intelligent enough to grasp when something is being done for them.

when President Obama is discussed, all i hear about is how is he lineal descendant of the hated Bill Clinton. like, Mr. Obama was just another neoliberal tool. and yet...

Mitt Romney may be right about President Obama’s Robin Hood tendencies. Future historians could well conclude that Mr. Obama led the biggest redistribution of wealth in decades.
The Affordable Care Act, which levies new taxes on the wealthy to expand access to health care for the near poor, seems on track to become the biggest increase in government redistribution since the Johnson administration.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/...ys-redistribution-debate-has-a-gray-area.html

*shrugs*

i have to admit, i have a pretty low opinion of the US electorate in general, both the right and the left.



i don't know where i fall on this spectrum. i'm not part of the donor class (that is to say, i'm not dumping my life savings into one party or the other), yet i do own stock in Apple. in Exxon Mobil. in Merck (alot of it in Merck, actually). at the dawn of the Obama administration, i invested in coal (bad bet).

i think as long as GOP blue collar voters get hoodwinked into voting, year after year, against their own economic self interest, alot of this is academic.

- IGIT

that seems extremely pessimistic and fatalistic to me. i have a lot more hope than that actually but not in the republican party. my hope is in the only place it can be and that is the democrats and progressives. these are the people who at least in principle care about the needs and concern of the working man.

since i grew up in that blue collar world in can tell you that they don't have to intellectually grasp if something has been done for them or not. it has to be felt and what i mean is this. if there is no money in the bank and they are working full time and the tires, battery, windshield might not make it through the winter they feel squeezed and they feel wronged and i believe rightly so. if they are doing their best and aren't making enough to take care of their children well then they will feel it.

add to that the possibility of illness, even with the shitty insurance they have, and a deep visceral fear sets in and a darkness as those survival instincts are always being touched tickled and triggered even slightly, but all the time.

this begins to weigh on a person and they feel something is wrong because something is. they hear of record profits and wall street taking in billions and government wasting tax dollars and they get pissed off.

you take away that trouble by giving these people more of the value of their work and some safety nets and i think the average person could not be bothered to hate on the level we see now and could not be radicalized too easily.

these conditions are what can and will lead to radicalization and i saw this coming before the idiot trump set foot on the stage with his fake populism and promise to solve everything and with his false demons (in this case and tragically literally accused demons) to blame it on.

the dem's need to step up to the moment we are actually living in and act on these actual conditions or i think we are headed for a precipice that is worse than the cost that any solution's may be. someone has got to really care and really fight and really stand for these people.

i realize there are other factors involved in the problems we face today but i think this is at the heart of it all and i don't think biden or the democratic party is up to this task or has their own house in order enough to do what needs to be done. and maybe it really cant be stopped and maybe the die is already cast.

 

[Source]

My initial thoughts were that once Trump was out of office, republicans and people who supported him would quietly distance themselves from him... much like they did with Bush Jr and carry on as usual. Basically not outright acknowledge that he sucked, but simply no longer defend criticisms of him and even use him as a scapegoat if needed.

But unlike Bush's supporters, many of Trump's people have gone all in on Trump, seemingly past the point where they could quietly distance themselves from him. Like Sean Hannity for example

So does Trump continue to have influence on the republican party or does he just fade away to Mar-a-Lago or something? And what will become of his supporters and the rest of the republican party?

My guess is they will work to continue to pull the GOP further and further to the right. This will result in a further radicalization of violent alt right components of the party. Ultimately leading to a main streaming of this violent wing as a necessity.

 

[terrapin]

My guess is they will work to continue to pull the GOP further and further to the right. This will result in a further radicalization of violent alt right components of the party. Ultimately leading to a main streaming of this violent wing as a necessity.

i think you are right sadly. i think this is where we are headed and trump is gasoline on the fire.

 

[IGIT]

i realize there are other factors involved in the problems we face today but i think this is at the heart of it all and i don't think biden or the democratic party is up to this task or has their own house in order enough to do what needs to be done.

hello again spacegnome,

i feel ya, my friend - and believe it or not, i want many of the same things you want from our Federal Government and from our POTUS.

the thing is, the things you and i want aren't the reasons why Joe Biden was elected to the Presidency.

do you know who Eric Rupert is (Rupert is the chef of the 3 starred Michelin rated restaurant, Le Bernadin, a temple of haute cuisine in NYC) or his friend, the late Anthony Bourdain? they once did an episode of Mr. Bourdain's in China.

RUPERT; When we went to Sichuan, I knew very well that I was going to suffer with the spices, and he knew, too. He asked me before I went, "Are you okay with that?" And I said, "Yes, I'm gonna be a good sport." Now, I didn't know to which degree I was going to suffer, but it was unbearable. It was so bad that one night I said, "Tony, I can't anymore.… Take me to Hooters."

Next to the hotel was a Hooters. He was like, "You're kidding me." I said, "No, I'm not. I'm not. My stomach is burned, I can't." And he said, "Okay, let's go to Hooters."

And he took all the production, invited everyone. So all the cameramen, everybody, we all went to Hooters in Chengdu in the middle of China. I needed a break. I ordered a burger with a weird name. I needed bread.
https://www.gq.com/story/anthony-bourdain-men-of-the-year-tribute

that's what Joe Biden represented to the average US voter who voted for him. he's a piece of bread. just plain' ol bread. Wonderbread, the most ordinary of breads.

the electorate was exhausted by the gastronomic weirdness of Chef Trump and wanted relief. Chef Biden wasn't elected to challenge the palate of voters...he was elected to serve pieces of white toast.

so, for now, i think the progressive agenda is going to have to wait.

*nods*

- IGIT

 

[terrapin]

hello again spacegnome,

i feel ya, my friend - and believe it or not, i want many of the same things you want from our Federal Government and from our POTUS.

the thing is, the things you and i want aren't the reasons why Joe Biden was elected to the Presidency.

do you know who Eric Rupert is (Rupert is the chef of the 3 starred Michelin rated restaurant, Le Bernadin, a temple of haute cuisine in NYC) or his friend, the late Anthony Bourdain? they once did an episode of Mr. Bourdain's in China.

RUPERT; When we went to Sichuan, I knew very well that I was going to suffer with the spices, and he knew, too. He asked me before I went, "Are you okay with that?" And I said, "Yes, I'm gonna be a good sport." Now, I didn't know to which degree I was going to suffer, but it was unbearable. It was so bad that one night I said, "Tony, I can't anymore.… Take me to Hooters."

Next to the hotel was a Hooters. He was like, "You're kidding me." I said, "No, I'm not. I'm not. My stomach is burned, I can't." And he said, "Okay, let's go to Hooters."

And he took all the production, invited everyone. So all the cameramen, everybody, we all went to Hooters in Chengdu in the middle of China. I needed a break. I ordered a burger with a weird name. I needed bread.
https://www.gq.com/story/anthony-bourdain-men-of-the-year-tribute

that's what Joe Biden represented the average US voter who voted for him. he's a piece of bread. just plain' ol bread. Wonderbread.

the electorate was exhausted by the gastronomic weirdness of Chef Trump and wanted relief. Chef Biden wasn't elected to challenge the palate of voters...he was elected to serve pieces of white toast.

so, for now, i think the progressive agenda is going to have to wait.

*nods*

- GIT

i think i agree with this for the most part. but i fear that the dems made a trerribe error which we may not get the chance to remedy for a good long time. or maybe there was no chance all along.

i think we are headed for extremist violence in this country. i think it is largely driven by economic disparity and discontent caused by corruption in the government. i fear that if we don't make some tangible changes and soon that people on the ground can feel in their guts we are going to cross some lines in this country that will be hard to uncross.

trump will continue to foment this trouble, he will actively promote it even imo. but if bellies are full and the pocketbook is ok and there is healthcare that doesn't break us i think people will calm down.

this is a monster a long time in the making and i think it will rear its ugly head in the upcoming years.

 

[Limeade]

I think we are going to be just fine. Republicans down ticket did better than expected at local and state races. The Democratic party does not have a persuasive argument for rural America and with this growing urban and rural divide in America, that's a short sighted outlook.

I don't see the connection between economic disparity and corruption in government. Isnt it due to differences in labor and education as well as our tax policies? We should tax wealth as ordinary income, remove oceans of state and local regulations, and take a long hard look at mandatory spending programs.

 

[Denter]

My guess is they will work to continue to pull the GOP further and further to the right. This will result in a further radicalization of violent alt right components of the party. Ultimately leading to a main streaming of this violent wing as a necessity.

"The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it."

The above sci-fi quote from Dune is, like most of that novel, dead on the money in our current politics. The system as it is currently constituted needs at least two parties for its legitimacy; it needs an opposing party to validate the democratic process, because the frame it has set for itself is that one-party states are illegitimate, authoritarian, undemocratic. It needs a loser to accept defeat and in doing so, validate the entire political process. But this whole system takes two to tango; if one party stops cooperating, it loses legitimacy; if one suffers permanent defeat, the same. It's a tremendously fragile situation to be in.

This kind of reminds me of the conundrum of the Allies and post-Versailles Germany, because I've been reading AJP Taylor's great The Origins of the Second World War again. The Allies needed an intact and functioning Germany, because a functioning Germany was necessary to pay reparations, keep central Europe demilitarized and validate the Versailles-created nations. So they couldn't invade Germany or throw it into chaos, because then the reparations would stop, and the security of the entire region would be jeopardized. But they also couldn't do much to stop a rising tide of nationalist revanchism, because intervening to crush those groups would further destabilize Germany. They could really only watch helplessly as Germany threw off each Versailles condition one by one, and eventually, the whole system went up in flames. The Allies foolishly constructed a system that required each party to buy in, and therefore, gave the veto to each.