what's it called when ... ?

[ohmalley]

when you start from your guard, grab a sleeve and collar grip, and your feet are positioned either a) both on the other guys knees/quads, or one on the knee (same side as sleeve grip) and the other foot acting as a hook on or between the legs.

i almost want to classify this as a sort of spider guard but i don't think that's completely accurate, as the foot positions aren't on my bicep and/or hip. perhaps i should know this but i've only got 7mos of training in.

last night i dropped in for a class at ocean beach barra brothers in SF. i'm used to being pretty competitive with other white belts, giving blues a hard time and occasionally subbing a blue (but mostly surviving and defending well). and this is both in my school and at other schools i've visited. but last night i got completely wrecked by every white belt i rolled with. i'm not sure what their experience level or time in training was, but that's beside the point. i think a smaller part of it was that i'm completely unfamiliar in dealing with the kind of guard they were all playing (described above). i've seen guys at my school use it (usually higher blues and up), but i've been exposed mostly to closed guard games, at least at my level. i couldn't figure out how to control the legs to pass. i have pretty good base, am strong and agile, but damn if these guys weren't tossing me left and right. i was defending the entire time, and i couldn't even get into a groove. it was pretty cool. but now of course i need to start figuring out how to deal with it, other than spending all my time stripping grips. =P

i'm hoping for some basic tips or pointers, or at least some appropriate terminology so i can youtube it!

many thanks!

 

[TalkShowOnMute]

Like this?

 

[Based and White Pilled]

I think you're talking about the De la Riva guard. (the picture the guy posted above is the De la Riva guard)

There is another position I have seen that I don't know the name of, if it has one but, I know that you can do a triangle sweep from there. You could try looking up the triangle sweep and going from there.



more pictures of the De la Riva guard:

sorry, I just re-read your description of the position and it's definitely not De la Riva. I'll keep looking for you.

 

[Red Harvest]

Option A) sounds buterfly guardish and Option B) is definitely the De la Riva guard.

 

[revad3]

sound like de la riva?

 

[Based and White Pilled]

Option A) sounds buterfly guardish and Option B) is definitely the De la Riva guard.

Yeah, I was kind of thinking it's just a modified butterfly guard that may not have a specific name, or at least not a well-known name.

 

[ohmalley]

thanks for all the help guys. it's def not de la riva. i'm familiar with that one -- a lot of guys in my gym play it (tho i'm equally inept at dealing with it from the top).

lemme try and break it down again. from my limited knowledge, it sounds like it might be margarita?

so say i'm on bottom. i grab his right sleeve with my left hand, and get a cross collar grip with my right hand. my left foot goes on his right foot or shin (knee, depending on whether he's standing or on his knees). my right foot starts on his left foot or knee (depending) but eventually moves to hook behind his left knee.

the leverage seems to work similar to spider guard, by pulling on my arm and upper body and keeping my legs at a distance. the sweep was achieved by pulling me off balance to a side, voiding the posting hand, and turning my left leg up over my head, as in a standard butterfly sweep. but when i was able to defend that, he'd quickly transition to a scissor sweep, or throw on a combination of omo platas or triangles. had me dancing non-stop for sure.

i tried various ways of stepping over the legs but was ultimately unsuccessful. the most success i had was in cartwheeling over them when they started to pull me into the sweep, but they were all really quick to swivel and retain guard, so i'd wind up in the same position again and again.

does this make a little more sense?

 

[Red Harvest]

It still sounds like De la Riva guard to me.

 

[Based and White Pilled]

No it's definitely not De la Riva because he said they are posting the leg on the same side of the sleeve grip on his knee/ankle AND if I'm comprehending correctly the other leg is posting and then when it hooks it is going in between the legs and lifting the same side leg of his opponent.

You have done a really good job describing it and I can imagine it perfectly but idk what it is called. I have never seen this done with a gi (my bjj experience and knowledge are just as limited as yours). I have seen something almost exactly what you are describing in MMA except with grabbing the wrist or using overhooks and underhooks instead of grabbing the gi.
I am unfamiliar with a margarita guard so I can't tell you if that's what it is.

I wish I could help you. I've been googling and youtubing the shit out of this trying to find something because I'm really curious now.

 

[armtriangle]

Sounds like a standard knee push sweep. Except instead of starting the scissor, he is starting with both feet on the knees. Basically he is sitting in front of you with both feet pushing and both hands pulling?

If both feet are pushing on the feet/knees, what is he using to turn your leg over your head?


EDIT. I see now, the hook is coming inside, like an elevator sweep.

Yeah, we call that #2 in the elevator series or #2 in the scissor series. A knee push sweep.

When you try to stop the unbalance by posting out wider, then you switch the the knee push. Then when you clamp down to stop the knee push, they switch to the omoplata.

If I am understanding you, it is a really common sequence. Its not a secret guard that is giving you trouble, they are just a step ahea of you. They know what your reaction is going to be and they have an answer.

 

[SMillard]

thanks for all the help guys. it's def not de la riva. i'm familiar with that one -- a lot of guys in my gym play it (tho i'm equally inept at dealing with it from the top).

lemme try and break it down again. from my limited knowledge, it sounds like it might be margarita?

so say i'm on bottom. i grab his right sleeve with my left hand, and get a cross collar grip with my right hand. my left foot goes on his right foot or shin (knee, depending on whether he's standing or on his knees). my right foot starts on his left foot or knee (depending) but eventually moves to hook behind his left knee.

the leverage seems to work similar to spider guard, by pulling on my arm and upper body and keeping my legs at a distance. the sweep was achieved by pulling me off balance to a side, voiding the posting hand, and turning my left leg up over my head, as in a standard butterfly sweep. but when i was able to defend that, he'd quickly transition to a scissor sweep, or throw on a combination of omo platas or triangles. had me dancing non-stop for sure.

i tried various ways of stepping over the legs but was ultimately unsuccessful. the most success i had was in cartwheeling over them when they started to pull me into the sweep, but they were all really quick to swivel and retain guard, so i'd wind up in the same position again and again.

does this make a little more sense?

sounds like a progression of spider guard, to be honest I think you are overthinking it trying to label it.

Sounds like you should step back with the left foot and half step back with the right work the right free step in between the legs to his inside from there drop your right knee in across their left thigh pinning it down while scooping up their right leg with your left arm onto your shoulder. Keep your posture and this should put you in a position to stretch them out and not be able to work the arm and collar to any effectiveness. That should put you in a position to pass their guard by pulling your left leg back across your right and let the right slide off. Just don't leave that left arm under that leg after you pass or you will be open for a reverse triangle. This will have you in side control. Try that and see how that works for you. Hope I explained that right.

 

[ItsAllMental]

Is it what Marcelo Garcia does at 2:28 in this video? If so it's just a push sweep variation using a hook instead of a leg scissor.

YouTube - Marcelo Garcia VS Alexis De Bretagne-Sparing 2006

 

[ohmalley]

armtriangle: yeah i didn't think it was some secret weapon, just something i haven't learned or dealt with much yet. at least, not with as much competence from another white!

smillard: thanks man, appreciate it. i'm only focused on naming it so i can google/youtube it. as with most things in bjj, it's pretty simple still flummoxing when you're first learning it. in any event, i'm def gonna try your defense. i'll post back here if i have any more questions.

itsallmental: yes, that looks like it. tho i gather now that this is less of a guard to play and more an issue of starting the roll from a sweep setup. it just felt like a guard because the guys seemed so fluid with it. seemed more like a system than a one-off sweep they were working on. which is i guess what distinguishes skill levels, no?