What would Traditionalist think about today MMA evolution?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Charlitos1988, May 27, 2014.

  1. Charlitos1988

    Charlitos1988 Purple Belt

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    For example in the early 70's traditional karate masters didn't like the idea of Full Contact (American Kickboxing) because it was considered barbaric and was against the tradition.

    What do you think will cross trough the minds of old traditional karatekas like Funakoshi, Kano, Ueshiba and those big names if they could be able to watch MMA fights and how their original separate martial arts techniques are used on a full contact scenario?

    and how about old boxers like John L Sullivan, or some early 1900's wrestlers?

    Maybe they will just shock or maybe end liking it.

    I want your opinion grapplers!
     
  2. JustSomeGuy

    JustSomeGuy Purple Belt

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    Just depends on the person and time. Daito-Ryu Ueshiba would see it differently that end of life Aikido Ueshiba for sure. Some would say it is too limited. Some would say it is barbaric. I don't doubt that some of the early Judo vs. JuJutsu battles resemble the UFC somewhat. Mas Oyama would probably have Just Bleed painted on his chest sitting next to the Octagon :)
     
  3. BrainBar

    BrainBar Orange Belt

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    Same as above. It would be mixed.

    I think many would say it isn't "as real as it gets".

    For a sport fight, "as real as it gets" wouldn't involve a referee standing you up if you cant get your own damn self off the mat. And it wouldn't involve rounds in which a fighter is caught in a submission, but gets saved by the bell.
     
  4. deadlizard

    deadlizard cold blooded

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    The creator of the original martial arts would die again if they saw that martial arts had become a form of modern dance called wushu.
     
  5. Harukaze

    Harukaze Brown Belt

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    Isn't there a forum rule against cross-posting?
     
  6. Pirat

    Pirat Blue Belt

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    Helio would dissaprove
     
  7. SAMURAI SPIRIT

    SAMURAI SPIRIT Blue Belt

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    What do you mean by "traditional?" Lets look at it this way:

    Mas Oyama had invented a bare-knuckle fighting style called "Ultimate Reality Combat." The Japanese word "Kyokushin" means exactly that ... "Ultimate Reality." He would look at modern UFC fighters and ask that they remove their gloves. Then you will see as many rib injuries in UFC that you see in bare-knuckle Karate tournaments. This would also force fighters to condition their ribs to bricks and baseball bats because you will see that more fighters will be dropping because of body blows than by anything else. Oyama was a judo black belt so he would appreciate the grappling aspect of MMA specially BJJ because that is what his "Reality Fighting" lacks. There is no ground game in Kyokushin.

    Mitsuyo Maeda would be delighted to see that his style of jiujitsu has given birth to the fastest growing sport in the world. He would object to rounds and time limits so that if the fight hits the ground it stays on the ground for as long as it takes to submit. This rule change would allow modern UFC television audience to see that BJJ grappling is really more effective if time limits and rounds are taken out.

    If these two guys were to have their way, then UFC would look more violent and less aesthetically pleasing than it is today. It would look like those garage brawls that Gracie had with a few fighters dropping due to body blows and low kicks. It would not sell as much on pay-per-view as the recent diluted version. Only hardcore Martial artists would watch it and this would be more pleasing to these two traditionalists.
     
  8. Edison Carasio

    Edison Carasio Excellence of execution belt Platinum Member

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    So you're saying Maeda and Oyama would want MMA to be basically UFC 1?
     
  9. nohomark

    nohomark White Belt

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    they would be saddened that wrestlers dominate
     
  10. Gojujutsu

    Gojujutsu Orange Belt

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    Kimura not only trained in Goju ryu karate but was friends with Mas Oyama. He competed in a vale tudo match with Santana in Brazil. When Judo spread in Japan, it did so by challenging other jujutsu styles. When Judo spread around the world it did so by challenging other national and folk styles. I don't think that all of the traditionalists would enjoy mma, ufc 1 style or current style, but I do think a significant number of them might.
     
  11. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    Why? Didn't what they take part in vale tudo fights?
     
  12. kintana

    kintana Purple Belt

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    I read in the book Pyjama game, that the heads of Judo found disgust in Kimura's vale tudo matches.

    The book says Kano would have disapproved. In fact Kano made it pretty clear that he did not like full contact matches. Though some point out that it was in Full Contact matches against Jiu jitsu that Kano discovered the finer points of Judo.
     
  13. TheFinerDetails

    TheFinerDetails Orange Belt

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    Nawww bubby, are you okay? Let's talk about it :)

    Nah seriously though, It'd be mixed, just like it is today really. I think some of them would see it for what it is, a SPORT...Which has RULES and REGULATIONS...Also that it is up to the FIGHTER whether THEY COMPETE in the SPORT...

    Traditionalists would naturally be more inclined to be bias towards the argument that these men aren't really "fighting" because it has rules and regulations. But then again, how often did these "traditionalists" ever get in a "fight" to test their "skills"? Not hatin', just asking questions.
     
  14. Gojujutsu

    Gojujutsu Orange Belt

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    I knew that they didn't like his vale tudo or his pro wrestling matches but that goes with what I was saying with it wouldn't be all. Also I think as you pointed out again, the early judo vs jujutsu matches were pretty much full contact win by submission only, so maybe Kano just got content at the top and didn't want to rock his boat.

    I think quite a few would come around though. This makes me think of my father-in-law. He started out in Karate in the early 70's and came from that very light contact style of sparring, but now he watches some mma, and is even asking me to teach him some jiu jitsu just in case he would need it.
     
  15. seatea

    seatea Black belt in Shotacon karate.

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    This isn't accurate; there was no striking in those matches, and you could win by points.
     
  16. pakho

    pakho White Belt

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    I think part of the reason too was that Kodokan disapproved of fighting for money.
     
  17. Gojujutsu

    Gojujutsu Orange Belt

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    http://judoinfo.com/rules2.htm

    This link is where I was drawing my info from. It says that you could only by a full opponent from a throw, submission, or hold. No points and no time limit. I didn't mean full contact in the sense that strikes were allowed, but we all know those guys that will basically punch you to get a grip inside the collar, kick your leg when trying to "go for a throw", etc. and these guys were probably much rougher than us.

    If you have some other info thy says differently, post a link or quote it. The above source is the only one I have, so it could be wrong.
     
  18. seatea

    seatea Black belt in Shotacon karate.

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    From your link:
    Even jujutsu schools used a points system:
    Source: Development of Judo Competition Rules.

    It is also extremely unlikely they would have been rougher back then - Kano's influence was paramount back then as was his philosophy. Kicks disguised as ashi-waza and the like would have gone down like a lead balloon.
     
  19. Gojujutsu

    Gojujutsu Orange Belt

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    All right, thanks for clearing the second part up for me. I said I could be wrong. As for the points, maybe it's just me, but if you can only win by getting first to 1 point, and cannot get less than a full point, its just first to execute a winning technique, not winning by points. Theoretically they win by points but not practically. I do see what you're saying about it though. I do wonder though if you could elaborate on what you meant by Kano and his philosophy being paramount because I thought we were talking about the contests that he used to establish his dominance.
     
  20. Spiderguard Man

    Spiderguard Man Orange Belt

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    if they were in the crowd at the next ppv event I imagine the would say something like "BRAINSSSS" but in japanese
     

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