Regimen What would be a routine for Kickboxing / MMA ?

[Trabaho]

Pudz was not in condition for the fight but you haven't even referenced all of the fights afterwards including a Gracie. Conditioning is obviously a part of s/c.

Why would the global strongman champ not be in shape ?

I know his record. B level and -A level. His best win is vs a MW.

 

[maximus__]

interesting you chose Pudz first mma fight but forgot to mention him KOing a Gracie who by default thinks technique is what wins fights in this day and age and all of these other guys in this video

Pudz was 9-3 and 6 years into an MMA career going into that fight. Rolles was 8-3. Rolles had a single fight in 2007 and then didn't fight again until 2009. Pudz started fighting pro in 2009.

It's almost as if you had 2 trained fighters fighting or something and one of them beat the other...

Look at your own video. Half the Ko's happen because Pudz actually has better technique than his opponents...

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Pudz was 9-3 and 6 years into an MMA career going into that fight. Rolles was 8-3. Rolles had a single fight in 2007 and then didn't fight again until 2009. Pudz started fighting pro in 2009.

It's almost as if you had 2 trained fighters fighting or something and one of them beat the other...

Look at your own video. Half the Ko's happen because Pudz actually has better technique than his opponents...

Correct he was already strong and by learning technique he was able to use the strength more efficiently.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

100% I believe that a certain level of skill acquisition is more important than developing athletic qualities like strength, speed and conditioning. The entire history of combat sports and fighting shows that. Soldiers throughout history drill basic skills and tactics, fighters drill basic techniques and tactics (sparring).

Does having a higher level of strength and physical conditioning hurt you in a fight? No it doesn't. I never said that. It does if that's all you have. Your position is that it's all you need. I gave you multiple chances to clarify that.

As per every single example you have shown, including "teaching" animals to fight, the end result always comes down to technical ability being more important. The Worlds Strongest man couldn't do anything to a trained fighter he outweighs by 50-100lbs just play sparring.I am not even talking about Aspinall who is a high level guy, just the regular guys in the gym he trained with. He says one guy felt "strong" when all he does is hold good head position in the clinch.

I don;t believe in Chi or not doing any strength/ conditioning work. I do more strength and conditioning than I do skill work currently. I just have countless hours of training both in sparring/in the gym and know what's important. Every single week I see the big, athletic guy come in and get wrecked by the smaller guy( and sometimes girl) that has put some time into actually pressure testing themselves to develop the ability to fight. The best part is when those guys stick around and actually become good themselves.

I never said that strength/size was all that mattered in a fight I said it is the greatest variable. You can show an 8 year old the most perfect technique in the world and have him spar for two hours a day and he is still isn't hurting you or me. I used to spar with the youth karate guys and let them hit me as hard as they could and felt nothing. If I had swung with any power at all they would have been hurt. This argument is just common sense. Weight classes exist for a reason. If there were no weight classes then 220-260 pounders would likely be the perrienial winners in mma with an occasional David vs Goliath upset.

 

[maximus__]

Correct he was already strong and by learning technique he was able to use the strength more efficiently.

So by becoming technically better he was able to beat other fighters... his strength wasn't enough. It took years of training and not doing Strongman work.

Pudz initially was competing in Super HW as a heads up. He was trading wins and losses to HW, LHW and even MWs during his career with them coming up to fight him at that weight...

He is losing to much smaller and technical fighters more often than he beats them. He has a better record against bigger less technical fighters.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

So by becoming technically better he was able to beat other fighters... his strength wasn't enough. It took years of training and not doing Strongman work.

Pudz initially was competing in Super HW as a heads up. He was trading wins and losses to HW, LHW and even MWs during his career with them coming up to fight him at that weight...

He is losing to much smaller and technical fighters more often than he beats them. He has a better record against bigger less technical fighters.

I never said to train hyper specifically for strongman for mma. To even be asked to compete against a former champion in mma was only by virtue of him being stronger than everyone at the time. If he was never strong to begin with he never would have been challenged at all. Then after getting conditioned he was able to more effectively apply his strength/athleticism. Tim was actually struggling to begin the fight anyways and he managed to survive being taken down and not being hit with a knockout blow. How is a Gracie not a technical fighter? It had very little to do with his technique but rather the strategy and conditioning that he made mistakes with in his first fight.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

this is pretty fun stuff

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Conor would certainly would likely have been the favorite in this the mountain here if they were really fighting by virtue of him being technically sound enough to defeat Jose Aldo in a matter of seconds. Because size/strength and athleticism aren't a variable at all in modern mma. I can go outrun Usain Bolt by virtue of my sprinting technique.

Surely you can see how silly you are sounding here.

 

[maximus__]

I never said that strength/size was all that mattered in a fight I said it is the greatest variable. You can show an 8 year old the most perfect technique in the world and have him spar for two hours a day and he is still isn't hurting you or me. I used to spar with the youth karate guys and let them hit me as hard as they could and felt nothing. If I had swung with any power at all they would have been hurt. This argument is just common sense. Weight classes exist for a reason. If there were no weight classes then 220-260 pounders would likely be the perrienial winners in mma with an occasional David vs Goliath upset.

No you literally said it means nothing multiple times. You have doubled down on that.

Nobody is arguing an 8 year old can out technique an adult. Nobody cares about you sparring kids in karate.

I started training as a kid. I did martial arts instead of team sports until I was older. I have been on both sides of it.
I beat pro MMA fighters as a kid in training and smoker fights. It meant nothing. That wasn't anything great I did, they just had a big technical knowledge gap and tried to out muscle a kid who was used to training with adults.

If the best MMA fighters were at the 220-260lb weightclass, then why do we constantly see 185ers and 205ers have major success at that weightclass? HW is so thin these days and the top 10 is a joke. You literally get someone with any form of grappling go on a massive win streak within that division until they run into another grappler.

 

[maximus__]

I never said to train hyper specifically for strongman for mma. To even be asked to compete against a former champion in mma was only by virtue of him being stronger than everyone at the time. If he was never strong to begin with he never would have been challenged at all. Then after getting conditioned he was able to more effectively apply his strength/athleticism. Tim was actually struggling to begin the fight anyways and he managed to survive being taken down and not being hit with a knockout blow. How is a Gracie not a technical fighter? It had very little to do with his technique but rather the strategy and conditioning that he made mistakes with in his first fight.

No you said technique is useless. Just be more athletic. I even tried to clarify it and you doubled down.

So Tim was able to beat him by being technically better.

I never said Rolles wasn't a technical fighter. You used an example of a guy with a near equal record and competition history in MMA, to show how you can overcome technique with strength. You used two fighters who had been training MMA for nearly the same time. If Pudz had gone out there and beat Rolles in a grappling comp maybe it would be a better argument. Instead you used an example with both guys competing in MMA for the same period. yes Rolles did BJJ for longer. Again he didn't get the fight to the ground, because he lacked that skill set to get there.

 

[maximus__]

Conor would certainly would likely have been the favorite in this the mountain here if they were really fighting by virtue of him being technically sound enough to defeat Jose Aldo in a matter of seconds. Because size/strength and athleticism aren't a variable at all in modern mma. I can go outrun Usain Bolt by virtue of my sprinting technique.

Surely you can see how silly you are sounding here.

Gunnar Nelson at that same time ... Fights at 170 in the UFC and barely cuts to that.
Gunnar is a bit wild and they went a bit harder. There is a longer video on Youtube if you want to watch it.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Gunnar Nelson at that same time ... Fights at 170 in the UFC and barely cuts to that.
Gunnar is a bit wild and they went a bit harder. There is a longer video on Youtube if you want to watch it.

Are you sure you are ok? Thor is not even throwing punches they are playing a game of grappling. I dont know where you have come up with this wild idea that I think technique doesn't matter at all. Im not going to keep restating my rational on the matter because you clearly dont understand what im saying or at least pretending not to. I dont even know what the argument is about at this point. Am I supposed to sit here and believe that a big strong guy cannot learn to throw a punch? Am I supposed to sit here and believe that if had just trained punching rather forgo any athletic qualities to punch harder that I would be punching harder because of technique? Am I supposed to believe that there is not diminishing returns on technique practice?

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT BJJ!!!!!! Anybody can throw a black belt on anybody and say here the guy is an expert in the sport. IT IS NOT TECHNIQUE OR ACQUIRING MORE AND MORE TECHNIQUE!!!!!

Im retiring from this thread...

 

[Trabaho]

Gunnar Nelson at that same time ... Fights at 170 in the UFC and barely cuts to that.
Gunnar is a bit wild and they went a bit harder. There is a longer video on Youtube if you want to watch it.

Prime Conor by KO. Even things like run and kick his balls. Too much experience.

 

[Trabaho]

Conor would flying stomp break his knee

 

[maximus__]

Are you sure you are ok? Thor is not even throwing punches they are playing a game of grappling. I dont know where you have come up with this wild idea that I think technique doesn't matter at all. Im not going to keep restating my rational on the matter because you clearly dont understand what im saying or at least pretending not to. I dont even know what the argument is about at this point. Am I supposed to sit here and believe that a big strong guy cannot learn to throw a punch? Am I supposed to sit here and believe that if had just trained punching rather forgo any athletic qualities to punch harder that I would be punching harder because of technique? Am I supposed to believe that there is not diminishing returns on technique practice?

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT BJJ!!!!!! Anybody can throw a black belt on anybody and say here the guy is an expert in the sport. IT IS NOT TECHNIQUE OR ACQUIRING MORE AND MORE TECHNIQUE!!!!!

Im retiring from this thread...

Gunnar is the one playing with him and talking shit in the video. Thor is redlining, you can hear it.
Gunnar isn't throwing strikes or even going serious and it's all Thor can handle in a safe ruleset for him. If they were going 100% he would last 1-2 mins before getting finished by whatever Gunnar wants. Gunnar is awesome but was top 10 at best in the UFC.

In response to this post early in the thread:
Cole train said:
If i remember correctly you are near 40 and havent competed but want to?

Forget S&C and put all in skill training since your technical level is likely low.

This is absolutely not true. Your outputs are far more important than skill in fighting.

I offered you multiple chances to clarify this and the claim that you can learn to strike in 1 hour. You doubled down that you can just be more athletic provided you can throw a punch. I gave you the out multiple times man.

Of course I can't fight like the pros there. You are preaching to the choir now. If I trained for mma I wouldnt blitz anybody in sparring I would spar light contact every day I could. If I was in a competitive mma fight or a street fight I would try to end the fight as fast as possible and avoid any unnecessary damage. I know of lower level pro fighters right now if they showed up at my door I could beat them with near certainty and no im not giving out any names either.

This is your experience. Between Chat GPT, Youtubers (who all show technical training), you couldn't hang with a FW in mid tier shows. They are all 150-170lb guys that would smoke you every day of the week in the streetz. Let alone going anywhere near an actual pro fighter with a chance of making a big show.

You keep bringing up black belts and BJJ, not me.You brought your own black belt up to say you must be right. I posted a video in response to the Mcgregor one from that same time. Gunnar trained in SBG. It's from the same training session or tour.

It's not hard. I simply said you require technical proficiency to be a competent fighter. Technical proficiency is built by training. Training involves learning to do things in a correct way for the athlete and pressure testing. Add strength and conditioning to that base, but not at a detriment to skill work..

You said just do strength and conditioning and take an hour to learn how to punch.

Nobody is arguing that a more athletic athlete of similar skill won't be better. Only you are arguing that you should put all your effort into athleticism and ignore building the actual skill to fight.

It's probably for the best.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Gunnar is the one playing with him and talking shit in the video. Thor is redlining, you can hear it.
Gunnar isn't throwing strikes or even going serious and it's all Thor can handle in a safe ruleset for him. If they were going 100% he would last 1-2 mins before getting finished by whatever Gunnar wants. Gunnar is awesome but was top 10 at best in the UFC.

In response to this post early in the thread:
Cole train said:
If i remember correctly you are near 40 and havent competed but want to?

Forget S&C and put all in skill training since your technical level is likely low.

I offered you multiple chances to clarify this and the claim that you can learn to strike in 1 hour. You doubled down that you can just be more athletic provided you can throw a punch. I gave you the out multiple times man.

This is your experience. Between Chat GPT, Youtubers (who all show technical training), you couldn't hang with a FW in mid tier shows. They are all 150-170lb guys that would smoke you every day of the week in the streetz. Let alone going anywhere near an actual pro fighter with a chance of making a big show.

You keep bringing up black belts and BJJ, not me.You brought your own black belt up to say you must be right. I posted a video in response to the Mcgregor one from that same time. Gunnar trained in SBG. It's from the same training session or tour.

It's not hard. I simply said you require technical proficiency to be a competent fighter. Technical proficiency is built by training. Training involves learning to do things in a correct way for the athlete and pressure testing. Add strength and conditioning to that base, but not at a detriment to skill work..

You said just do strength and conditioning and take an hour to learn how to punch.

Nobody is arguing that a more athletic athlete of similar skill won't be better. Only you are arguing that you should put all your effort into athleticism and ignore building the actual skill to fight.

It's probably for the best.

You do not have any clue what you are talking about. You are correct that sherdog is a joke though at least this subform.

 

[dentalplan]

It is boxing muay thai wrestling and only 1% of fighters used karate cause most karate schools don't go hard and the techniques itself don't work, karate stylists will never use karate guard and punches, noone will retract their fist back to their hip, I am not stupid.

GSP, Machida, Chuck had some elements also Wonderboy. Wonderboy and Machida are Karate based. They still don't do the full karate style punches.

Feitosa, Filho, even Shilt are also from a Karate background into world class Kickboxing.

For fighting a small percentage of schools are legit. There are a lot of McDojos and commercial soft gyms. Softer gyms is fine. But most of it isn't for fighting and for MMA.

I know you are not from a hard full contact karate school. Hence you don't got a real fighting background. Imo. Maybe you are talented and cross trained. Dude you looked so bad on the bag, what was that. You are not a martial artist. A real full contact Karateka would owned that bag. Your kicks were horendous.

Raymond Daniels is another karate badass

 

[Trabaho]

Raymond Daniels is another karate badass

Exactly thought about him but forgot the name. He really did Karate in there. Old school kickboxing is better, Holzken vs Daniels, clear style demonstration. To be fair prime Holzken is top elite kickboxing. Daniels did very well as Karate stylist.

 

[maximus__]

You do not have any clue what you are talking about. You are correct that sherdog is a joke though at least this subform.

What that being a skilled fighter and then building your athleticism is better than just being athletic and throwing big shots?

Please tell me how i could possibly be wrong about that?

 

[ROcknrollracing]

What that being a skilled fighter and then building your athleticism is better than just being athletic and throwing big shots?

Please tell me how i could possibly be wrong about that?

Because you are basically telling a guy to go train nothing but skill practice and sparring full bore without even addressing his athletic base. It is a recipe for injury and disaster.