What was martial arts in Japan like before Jigoro Kano

[MadSquabbles500]

What was martial arts like in Japan like before Jigoro Kano came up with judo?

And especially japanese jujitsu. Were they all primarily grappling arts or striking arts? Did they have live sparring? Or did Kano introduce that concept?

 

[rmongler]

Step 1: don't fall over

Step 2: make the guy fall over

Step 3: stab him while he's fallen over.

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Profit!

 

[j123]

Step 1: don't fall over

Step 2: make the guy fall over

Step 3: stab him while he's fallen over.

Step 4: ???

Step 4b: Commit Seppuku if you fell over in step 1, or if the guy didn't fall over in step 2

Step 5: Profit!

Fixed.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Step 1: don't fall over

Step 2: make the guy fall over

Step 3: stab him while he's fallen over.

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Profit!

I am asking about the training that they did in order to achieve steps 1 through 5.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

What was martial arts like in Japan like before Jigoro Kano came up with judo?

And especially japanese jujitsu. Were they all primarily grappling arts or striking arts? Did they have live sparring? Or did Kano introduce that concept?

I think the main focus of martial arts at that time was the martial aspect.
Hand to hand combat was practiced mainly by people, who needed it on daily basis- police and military.
Police, for example, was practicing style, called taihojutsu (art of apprehending) and disarming.
There was no sportive or hobby style at the time.
And thats what Kano actually did- he derived certain techniques, built curriculum, in order to create an art, to be safely practiced by the general population as a sport.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I think the main focus of martial arts at that time was the martial aspect.
Hand to hand combat was practiced mainly by people, who needed it on daily basis- police and military.
Police, for example, was practicing style, called taihojutsu (art of apprehending) and disarming.
There was no sportive or hobby style at the time.
And thats what Kano actually did- he derived certain techniques, built curriculum, in order to create an art, to be safely practiced by the general population as a sport.

Was there police at the time? And I always assumed during pre-modern times, the armies are made up of peasant levies drafted into service when need be.

Like in Europe, I believed bare knuckles boxing has been around a while, and was practiced for spectator sport. And I believe there were various fencing schools too. I am not sure if only high borne sons could attend those, and I guess back then high borne sons had to serve.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Was there police at the time? And I always assumed during pre-modern times, the armies are made up of peasant levies drafted into service when need be.

Like in Europe, I believed bare knuckles boxing has been around a while, and was practiced for spectator sport. And I believe there were various fencing schools too. I am not sure if only high borne sons could attend those, and I guess back then high borne sons had to serve.

There was always some kind of law enforcement- local warlord militia or something like that.
The peasants are the draft for major conflicts, trained by samurais (professional soldiers), who were also serving as city militia, praetorian guards and etc. Their main skills were horse riding, archery, sword fighting and then hand to hand combat.
Sumo at that time was a carnival or festival wrestling, with quite different set of rules, if any.
Another example- turkish oil wrestling was a form of physical exercise for the jennisars. They practiced in the means of going to the gym.

 

[loyalyolayal]

Hardwood floors. Tatami was for poosies.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

There was always some kind of law enforcement- local warlord militia or something like that.
The peasants are the draft for major conflicts, trained by samurais (professional soldiers), who were also serving as city militia, praetorian guards and etc. Their main skills were horse riding, archery, sword fighting and then hand to hand combat.
Sumo at that time was a carnival or festival wrestling, with quite different set of rules, if any.
Another example- turkish oil wrestling was a form of physical exercise for the jennisars. They practiced in the means of going to the gym.

So you dont believe there was any kind of live wrestling for the peasant folks to practice for sport other than sumo I guess?

 

[Calibur]

The way I've been told by my instructors training had no unreal structure, particularly for grappling.

You would find a sensei and then you would do whatever he commanded with the group. Mostly a lot of calisthenics and then grappling. You were thrown to the wolves and had to grapple with the largest most experienced guys. Most likely you would get thrown on your head or arm and injure yourself all while the instructor called you lazy and stupid.

If you got injured and came back they'd say don't let that happen again and you would continue to do the calisthenics and spar until you became the hammer and found other nails to pound.

This created a survival of the fittest mentality and results were random. It ended up that the best athletes found the strongest schools and built the strongest teams but they didn't grow large since so many people with potential were injured before they could reach their potential and the small didn't even attempt Jiu Jitsu since they wouldn't last a day and the atmosphere the schools created had an unsavory appeal to regular Japanese folk.

Jivaro Kano was a little guy with a lot of money, clout and a background in education. He created a structure that allowed the weak to survive training and used his influence to spread throughout. When he started winning he attracted the strongest athletes with experience and the rich got richer.

According to my instructor there were no karate uniforms at the time. Kano was a martial arts dork so when he went to Okinawa to experience karate first hand he was impressed with the training and invited groups of karateka to Tokyo to demonstrate their "Chinese striking. "

When they arrived he was shocked that they didn't have uniforms so he made them where judo unforms to make them seem more organized for their presentation and the look stuck. Legend has it that the karate gi is just a modified judo gi established because of kanos influence. Before that karate people just wore shorts and any shirt they could find.

This is all conjecture. So many different legends and versions of history that it's tough to say anything with certainty. Especially since different groups benefit from making it seem that their chosen demagogue was the creator of everything.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

So you dont believe there was any kind of live wrestling for the peasant folks to practice for sport other than sumo I guess?

I dont think there was anything worth to mention.
People didnt practice sports for fun at that time.
Peasants were busy in the rise fields and if the primary way to keep bandits away is a bow, spear or sword, they wont be practicing any wrestling style.
Quite the difference with mountain or stepppe animal farmers (like Caucasus or Mongolia for example), where shepherds will practice their folk wrestling, just to kill time.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Quite the difference with mountain or stepppe animal farmers (like Caucasus or Mongolia for example), where shepherds will practice their folk wrestling, just to kill time.

Was it because they had more leisure time on the steppe, and mountains or because they were just more martial?

 

[MadSquabbles500]

The way I've been told by my instructors training had no unreal structure, particularly for grappling.

You would find a sensei and then you would do whatever he commanded with the group. Mostly a lot of calisthenics and then grappling. You were thrown to the wolves and had to grapple with the largest most experienced guys. Most likely you would get thrown on your head or arm and injure yourself all while the instructor called you lazy and stupid.

If you got injured and came back they'd say don't let that happen again and you would continue to do the calisthenics and spar until you became the hammer and found other nails to pound.

This created a survival of the fittest mentality and results were random. It ended up that the best athletes found the strongest schools and built the strongest teams but they didn't grow large since so many people with potential were injured before they could reach their potential and the small didn't even attempt Jiu Jitsu since they wouldn't last a day and the atmosphere the schools created had an unsavory appeal to regular Japanese folk.

Jivaro Kano was a little guy with a lot of money, clout and a background in education. He created a structure that allowed the weak to survive training and used his influence to spread throughout. When he started winning he attracted the strongest athletes with experience and the rich got richer.

According to my instructor there were no karate uniforms at the time. Kano was a martial arts dork so when he went to Okinawa to experience karate first hand he was impressed with the training and invited groups of karateka to Tokyo to demonstrate their "Chinese striking. "

When they arrived he was shocked that they didn't have uniforms so he made them where judo unforms to make them seem more organized for their presentation and the look stuck. Legend has it that the karate gi is just a modified judo gi established because of kanos influence. Before that karate people just wore shorts and any shirt they could find.

This is all conjecture. So many different legends and versions of history that it's tough to say anything with certainty. Especially since different groups benefit from making it seem that their chosen demagogue was the creator of everything.

Are you referring to jujitsu? So jujitsu back then was strictly a wrestling art?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Was it because they had more leisure time on the steppe, and mountains or because they were just more martial?

It is interesting question indeed.
Weapon training was reserved for high borns or professional soldiers.
Steppe cultures are typically nomad ones, so no serious land cultivation skills, but more of herding and horse riding (Mongolia and all Central Asia). Mountain animal farming is the same. Both are exposed to bandits and wild animals, so shepherds would be a lot more prepared to fight, compared to land cultivating peasants.
They also had a lot of free time on their hands, so they practiced all kind of folk styles wrestling (belt wrestling been one) as a form of physical exercise and for fun.

 

[lechien]

From what I read jiu jitsu just meant unarmed combats.

We had schools that taught about everything and nothing: striking, grappling, healing etc..

Each schools was reknowned for some specific techniques.

Which were kept written in some secrets which the master will be entrusted to keep.

Grappling and striking is a peasant past time and regarded as low caste. As real warrior would fight with weapons.

 

[loyalyolayal]

I thought jiu-jitsu was developed because soldiers who dropped their weapons would have a better chance of grappling an armored opponent as opposed to strikes.

 

[McA]

Context: The Convention of Kangawa was 1854: America gets tired of the low-level naval war and piracy from Japan, threatens all-out war; Japan surrenders and signs treaty. Generally described as ‘forcing Japan to open its ports to trade’. Japan fought and lost to Britain in naval skirmishes 1863-1864.

The American Civil War was 1861-1865. The whole world noted the advancements in cannon and rifle technology, and failed to realize the importance of trenches.

Japan had a civil war (the Boshin War) 1868-1869, following the death of Emperor Komei in 1867, and the subsequent power struggles and coup attempts.

Japan forces Korea to sign a trade treaty in 1876. By 1894, Japan would be sending troops into Korea, and then China (the Sino-Japanese War).

Sensei Kano was born 1860, founded the Kodokan in 1882. He was a teacher and studied history, but his life experiences and ideas would have been shaped by current events.

 

[fishNjits]

My understanding was that ju-jitsu started as a way for either unarmed samurai to defend themselves or as a means of taking down one's opponent during a sword fight. The emphasis was on throws and take downs. While striking and grappling were taught, neither were particularly useful since the samurai wore armor in battle.

 

[j123]

When they arrived he was shocked that they didn't have uniforms so he made them where judo unforms to make them seem more organized for their presentation and the look stuck. Legend has it that the karate gi is just a modified judo gi established because of kanos influence. Before that karate people just wore shorts and any shirt they could find.

Damn... so he's the reason we all have to spend $100+ for Gi's today.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Medieval warfare was a lot more complicated than just two guys bashing each other with katanas.
Organized and trained groups with spears, archers and cavalry were the major forces, before the introduction of firearms.
If anyone "lost" his weapon during combat, he was most probably dead within a few seconds, since he would be facing a wall of spears, charging horse riders or flying arrows (japanese didnt use shields).
The only useful grappling on a battlefield would be pinning, since captured high borns were ransomed for great prize.

So, hand to hand combat was practiced by people, who would need to deal with less number of opponents, most probably 1 on 1, 1 on 2. Traditional japanese jujutsu was and still is full of weapon disarming moves, subduing people on the bellies with wrist and elbow locks (so they can be cuffed with hands behind their back), hair grabs and such...