What techniques did Helio change to better suit the smaller person?

[Einarr]

Why are you on a martial arts forum over-simplifying an art's history in an attempt to degrade it behind a facade of humor? I think they have a name for people like that... "troll."

Where did you get that from? Why would I want to degrade BJJ? I train BJJ 15 hours a week and am a blue belt, and cross-train in Judo and Freestyle Wrestling for three and two hours respectively. BJJ is my primary and first art. What are you, a white belt who just watched UFC1?

P.S. Check out the history of Judo, bro. Where'd it come oops i mean... Where did it come from? (Since we are on Sherdog.edu now)

Kano Jigoro amalgamated the techniques of several ryu of Jujutsu, removed techniques that were too dangerous to spar at 100% and threw in a bit of wrestling. What does that have to do with anything?

I think the Gracie nuthugger is butthurt, Einarr...

I've never seen such acute anal agony, RJ. Is there anything we can do for him?

 

[cms9690]

Great thread!

Rambo---Awesome contribution, I enjoyed your read.

Trolls--- Yay Trolls.

 

[cc023]

Where did you get that from? Why would I want to degrade BJJ? I train BJJ 15 hours a week and am a blue belt, and cross-train in Judo and Freestyle Wrestling for three and two hours respectively. BJJ is my primary and first art. What are you, a white belt who just watched UFC1?



Kano Jigoro amalgamated the techniques of several ryu of Jujutsu, removed techniques that were too dangerous to spar at 100% and threw in a bit of wrestling. What does that have to do with anything?



I've never seen such acute anal agony, RJ. Is there anything we can do for him?

I got that from your post. I don't care how much you train, you very clearly disrepected Master Helio and the origions of The Gentle Art so don't backtrack on it now.

Oh, so you knew that Judo was adapted from Jujutsu just as Jiu Jitsu was from Judo? Just as all martial arts evolve? It's funny that your original post implicated that to mean BJJ was just a slight variant of Judo and now your acting like you have no idea why I brought it up.

Damn, this attitude is coming from a blue belt? Would have thought purple at least. BJJ is really your primary? You act more like a wrestler. If you want to know how long I've trained and see my level, where do you train 15 hours a week? My husband and I do a lot of traveling, I'm sure we could come visit.

 

[TriangleMan]

The Japanese, known for being huge, tall, muscle-bound

 

[cc023]

Where did you get that from? Why would I want to degrade BJJ? I train BJJ 15 hours a week and am a blue belt, and cross-train in Judo and Freestyle Wrestling for three and two hours respectively. BJJ is my primary and first art. What are you, a white belt who just watched UFC1?



Kano Jigoro amalgamated the techniques of several ryu of Jujutsu, removed techniques that were too dangerous to spar at 100% and threw in a bit of wrestling. What does that have to do with anything?



I've never seen such acute anal agony, RJ. Is there anything we can do for him?

Maybe I misunderstood where you were coming from in your original post, but that wouldn't happen if you acted more like a martial artist and less like a douche.

Just be more appreciative of the forerunners of your art and other practitioners won't come at you for being an idiot.

 

[Einarr]

I got that from your post. I don't care how much you train, you very clearly disrepected Master Helio and the origions of The Gentle Art so don't backtrack on it now.

Oh, so you knew that Judo was adapted from Jujutsu just as Jiu Jitsu was from Judo? Just as all martial arts evolve? It's funny that your original post implicated that to mean BJJ was just a slight variant of Judo and now your acting like you have no idea why I brought it up.

Damn, this attitude is coming from a blue belt? Would have thought purple at least. BJJ is really your primary? You act more like a wrestler. If you want to know how long I've trained and see my level, where do you train 15 hours a week? My husband and I do a lot of traveling, I'm sure we could come visit.

I can make light of myths and propaganda as much as I like. I don't disrespect H

 

[nomoremondays]

It took many years for Judo and Jiujitsu to transform into the separate entities we see today so who knows, in the early 1950's (when Helio/Kimura took place) referring to Kimura as a jiujitsu fighter could in some ways be accurate.

No.

Folks like Tatsuo Okashi, Katsutoshi Naito, Yasuichi Ono, Sobei Tani, Ryuzo Ogawa etc had settled nicely in brazil in the 20's and 30's and had well established the foundations of judo. They were all recognized kodokan judoka. To still not recognize what judo was in 1951 is a bit too much.

 

[RJ Green]

Maybe I misunderstood where you were coming from in your original post, but that wouldn't happen if you acted more like a martial artist and less like a douche.

Just be more appreciative of the forerunners of your art and other practitioners won't come at you for being an idiot.

 

[Einarr]

Maybe I misunderstood where you were coming from in your original post, but that wouldn't happen if you acted more like a martial artist and less like a douche.

Just be more appreciative of the forerunners of your art and other practitioners won't come at you for being an idiot.

Does anyone else suspect that this guy is a brown belt with a certain penchant for coleslaw?

 

[nomoremondays]

Allegedly it wasn't part of the regular curriculum, and Rolles re-discovered it from an old judo book. Who knows the real story. But it seems in the old days (like the 30's) they didn't use the triangle. And the original "Gracie Gift" guard pass is so named because it's a gift to give some the triangle. (The pass is basically reaching one arm through the legs of the closed guard in order to pass.)

Here's some fun facts about sankaku jime/triangle.
Yasuichi Ono went to Brazil in 1928. Ono was one of Kanemitsu Yaitibe's top student. Yaitibe was regarded as one of the greatest newaza masters of his time and who along with tsunetane oda is regarded as instrumental in the development of sankaku jime. Ono within five years of being in Brazil had fought a bunch of challenge fights. A few of them with... yes the Gracies. The results of which?

 

[triangle killer]

Does anyone else suspect that this guy is a brown belt with a certain penchant for coleslaw?

Could be, I don't think hes been swearing enough though

 

[AllKnowing]

No.

Folks like Tatsuo Okashi, Katsutoshi Naito, Yasuichi Ono, Sobei Tani, Ryuzo Ogawa etc had settled nicely in brazil in the 20's and 30's and had well established the foundations of judo. They were all recognized kodokan judoka. To still not recognize what judo was in 1951 is a bit too much.

Um, no to what? Helio's jiujitsu is a direct result of Maeda teaching Judo to his brothers. During the time Maeda taught judo to the Gracie's, the art was still referred to as Kano Jiujitsu, a term that took root in the culture and was subsequently passed down through the generations.

Without the aid of present day and widely available media, is it really so hard to think the general public could view Kimura under the same pretenses and titles that they viewed Maeda thirty years earlier?

 

[nomoremondays]

Um, no to what?

To this

in the early 1950's ...referring to Kimura as a jiujitsu fighter could in some ways be accurate.

Without the aid of present day and widely available media, is it really so hard to think the general public could view Kimura under the same pretenses and titles that they viewed Maeda thirty years earlier?

The people I mentioned were well established as judoka by then. They ran clubs and federations like the Brazilian Budokan, Brazilian Association of kodokan black belts etc. They had ads in newspapers etc. Maybe the general public did not know them but someone in the martial arts circle surely would have.

EDIT: I agree to the general idea that in the early 20's there was a reason for name confusion but my point is that by the 1950's the demarcation was fairly established.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Yeah, Japanese people are known as the Asian Samoans. Einarr probably saw a picture of Kimura and assumes all judoka looks like that.

Stupidass post.

You are taking a sarcastic post as if it were serious.

 

[ObeyJJ]

Kron talks about Helio's version of the cross choke here at 1:48.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFiR3-nDKww

 

[Einarr]

You are taking a sarcastic post as if it were serious.

That guy has been choked a few too many times. :icon_neut

 

[RJ Green]

Ad hominem arguments and misconstrued sarcasm for all! Hooray!

 

[lechien]

And I think there are a lot of places where the Gracies missed the boat (the triangle for example).


That whole post was fascinating.
But how did the Gracies miss the boat on the triangle? Hopefully this isn't something I should already know... :redface:

The triangle was just not taught as part of the general curriculum in my opinion.

Only a few Judokas mastered the triangle anyway, and it seems it is now popular again in Judo after seeing in the UFC.

someone that trains Judo can explain.

 

[nomoremondays]

Only a few Judokas mastered the triangle anyway, and it seems it is now popular again in Judo after seeing in the UFC.

someone that trains Judo can explain.

The type of triangle most popular in bjj, the one from guard is not very popular in judo competition outside of randori. It is mainly because it is relatively easy to get matte from there within the rules. However, triangle remains one of the most popular ways to attack a turtled uke. Quick youtubing will show that to be true.

 

[shunyata]

He was smaller than other guys who trained any kind of hand to hand combat in Brazil back then...

An average man is about 170-190 lbs. Helio was typically at least 30 lbs smaller than this, not to say he lacked any muscular definition but definitely had a more slight stature.

These are the men who he had to prove his skills against, and this is why he is remembered for being small.... because he was.

Average man worldwide is closer to 150 lbs. 170 lbs as an average is closer to true for the USA but not for Brazil or Japan and especially not in the early 1900s.

You could argue that the average mass of guys training for vale tudo is a bit higher but actual worldwide average weight of an adult male is closer to 150.

This is where the Helio myth starts.

Helio was averge sized. He was only little compared to big guys.