What makes the most sense?

[En Sabah Nur]

I'm looking for a combination of size and strength and am at a loss which direction to take out of the following. I feel each one has their individual benefits and draw-backs.

1) 5/3/1 for beginners: Varying intensity full-body 3x a week with 2-3 assistance lifts added.
+ More room in tank for assistance lifts/weak point training
- Slow advancement on big lifts

2) 5/3/1 as-is: Slight variation of the above with a 3-4 day template.
+ More room in tank for assistance lifts/weak point training
- Slow advancement on big lifts

3) Standing linear progression (Greyskull or something similar) with Bench/Squat & Press/Deadlift alternating.
+ Quicker progression on big lifts
- Less room in tank for assistance lifts

It does look like I have a strange preoccupation with assistance lifts but from what I gather the addition of GHR, ab wheel, dips and pull-ups can only increase things like the presses and squat/deads

 

[KnightTemplar]

First, sweet user name. 9/10, would bang.:icon_twis

Second, how long have you been training and what are your Numbers?

 

[LatFlare]

Start training and make adjustments as required.

 

[En Sabah Nur]

Thanks to both

No lifting background - played lacrosse and baseball from 5 until 19 but we spent little to no time in the weight room. Been fatfucking myself out of shape until recently. Have fooled around a bit on squats on deadlifts and put each at about mid-200 and 300, respectively. Absolutely nothing to write home about.

 

[Tosa]

I think a program with more frequent practice with the main lifts would be best.

Some assistance work is good, but at this point keep it basic. For example, some extra upper back work, Abs, and lower back/posterior chain, would round things out, and help keep the back and shoulders healthy. Assistance requires some thought and experience, so it's best to start with just a bit, and gradually experiment with it.

For example, you mentioned GHRs - in my opinion they're very overrated, but maybe they work for you - but you won't find out if you start off doing a whole bunch of assistance. And figuring out what works is part of the whole process.

 

[bowlie]

I think a program with more frequent practice with the main lifts would be best.

Some assistance work is good, but at this point keep it basic. For example, some extra upper back work, Abs, and lower back/posterior chain, would round things out, and help keep the back and shoulders healthy. Assistance requires some thought and experience, so it's best to start with just a bit, and gradually experiment with it.

For example, you mentioned GHRs - in my opinion they're very overrated, but maybe they work for you - but you won't find out if you start off doing a whole bunch of assistance. And figuring out what works is part of the whole process.

I agree, especially with practice the lifts. What helped me initially was to just pick fewer exercises, and really hammer them home. Really get the form as good as I could. So I liked 5/3/1 for that because I knew I was just going to do deadlifts that day, and I could spend ages adjusting my technique and form that day until it felt right. But I also scrapped the squats and press day from my routine initially, and had twice as many days on bench and deadlifts. This may not be something you want to do, I mainly did it because of injurys, but being able to hit each lift twice a week definintely helped me get the form down.

You will probably progress quicker than 5lbs a month, but i guess there is no reason you can increase the poundage by more than that.

 

[JauntyAngle]

I agree, especially with practice the lifts. What helped me initially was to just pick fewer exercises, and really hammer them home. Really get the form as good as I could. So I liked 5/3/1 for that because I knew I was just going to do deadlifts that day, and I could spend ages adjusting my technique and form that day until it felt right. But I also scrapped the squats and press day from my routine initially, and had twice as many days on bench and deadlifts. This may not be something you want to do, I mainly did it because of injurys, but being able to hit each lift twice a week definintely helped me get the form down.

You will probably progress quicker than 5lbs a month, but i guess there is no reason you can increase the poundage by more than that.

5/3/1 in its normal versions only gives you a significant amount of practice with the main lifts if you use BBB assistance. In one session your work sets are likely to comprise a total of only 10-20 reps. If you did stronglifts you would do 75 reps of squat, and an average of 37.5 reps of bench and press (each). Madcow is similar, I would guess. And I hesitate to think how many reps of the main lifts yu do on average in Sheiko. I wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to 100.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Thanks to both

No lifting background - played lacrosse and baseball from 5 until 19 but we spent little to no time in the weight room. Been fatfucking myself out of shape until recently. Have fooled around a bit on squats on deadlifts and put each at about mid-200 and 300, respectively. Absolutely nothing to write home about.

I'd recommend Starting Strength, as you are still in a position to benefit from Noob Gains. Hammer the main Lifts and don't worry about Assistance Exercises while you're still a beginner.

 

[KnightTemplar]

5/3/1 in its normal versions only gives you a significant amount of practice with the main lifts if you use BBB assistance. In one session your work sets are likely to comprise a total of only 10-20 reps. If you did stronglifts you would do 75 reps of squat, and an average of 37.5 reps of bench and press (each). Madcow is similar, I would guess. And I hesitate to think how many reps of the main lifts yu do on average in Sheiko. I wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to 100.

True, although there is greater volume/intensity if one runs a Full Body version of 5/3/1, since by definition one is Squatting, Pulling and Pressing every workout.

 

[Obscure Terror]

Milk your Starting Strength gains for as long as possible. Then do Madcow or Texas Method, whatever suits, then look at 5/3/1. This is what I wish I'd have done, I did 5/3/1 way too early in my lifting career.

 

[Deleted member 382931]

Milk your Starting Strength gains for as long as possible. Then do Madcow or Texas Method, whatever suits, then look at 5/3/1. This is what I wish I'd have done, I did 5/3/1 way too early in my lifting career.

Did it that way and have been getting good results so far. The first few cycles I did more base building stuff (leg curls, facepulls, rows, etc.) to even out the areas that weren't hit as hard with the big lift programms.

Main points I have to be taken away from that:

Most importantly, still push your main lifts hard
If you want to cut, don't get crazy and do it intelligently
Don't obsess over assistance and supplementary exercises
Try to implement some type of conditioning consistently

I messed up the first two points, which put a pretty good damper on my overall progress for close to half a year.

 

[En Sabah Nur]

Thanks all. I'm going with an LP with assistance work. Thoughts on the following? (And no, SS looks boring as shit to me. I know Mark Rippetoe is 100x more stronger than me, more knowledgeable and could fuck my mother and sister on command, but I won't commit to it.)

Alternating A/B at 3 days per week:

Day A
Squat, 3x5 (+5 per session)
Bench press, 3x5 (+2.5)
Pull-ups, 4x6
Curl variant, 3-4x
Face-pulls, 3-4x
Neck harness

Day B
Deadlift, 1x5 (+5)
Press, 3x5 (+2.5)
Back-raises or good-mornings (light), 3-4x
Wrist roller, 3x
Neck harness

 

[Tosa]

Seems reasonable.

If you're just doing deadlifts 1x5 on a day apart from squats, make sure you do plenty of warm-up sets, and take the warm-up sets seriously (You should always take warm-ups seriously, but doubly so here). A top set of five isn't enough work on it's own - all the warm-up set are also part of training.

You'll probably want to progress from 4x6 pull-ups in some manner. Either in weight or reps.

I assume be "3-4x" you mean 3-4 sets of a bunch of light or moderate weight reps. If so, that's fine.

 

[En Sabah Nur]

Seems reasonable.

If you're just doing deadlifts 1x5 on a day apart from squats, make sure you do plenty of warm-up sets, and take the warm-up sets seriously (You should always take warm-ups seriously, but doubly so here). A top set of five isn't enough work on it's own - all the warm-up set are also part of training.

You'll probably want to progress from 4x6 pull-ups in some manner. Either in weight or reps.

I assume be "3-4x" you mean 3-4 sets of a bunch of light or moderate weight reps. If so, that's fine.

Thanks

Just 1x5 on the deadlifts. I'm probably going to start light at 185 and progress from there. Does that mean a bunch of singles or doubles at 135 to warm up? Should I add back-off singles after the main 5 reps?

The spreadsheet I made is
bar
5 @ 40%
5 @ 60%
3 @ 80%
? x ? @ working weight

Pull-ups are the amount I imagine I can get. If not I will have to cut the volume greatly. Are heavy pull-downs/band-assisted a viable option or alternative?

3-4 is light, moderate weight/reps yes.

Thanks again

 

[Tosa]

10% jumps in weight for deadlifts would make sense for the last couple sets. Before that, whatever feels right - maybe aim for at least 5 total sets. Do the warm-up sets as fives, or triples, if you feel the need to save some more energy for the top set. You could add back off work later, if you find that you're not getting enough practice with deadlifts, but don't worry about that for now.

Band assisted pull-ups are a good option. But if you're able to do a few good pull-ups, then you needn't worry about alternatives. Just do lots of total reps, try not to go near failure, and add more total reps - it's the best way to get better at pull-ups, even if you're only doing sets of 2 or 3.

 

[bowlie]

5/3/1 in its normal versions only gives you a significant amount of practice with the main lifts if you use BBB assistance. In one session your work sets are likely to comprise a total of only 10-20 reps. If you did stronglifts you would do 75 reps of squat, and an average of 37.5 reps of bench and press (each). Madcow is similar, I would guess. And I hesitate to think how many reps of the main lifts yu do on average in Sheiko. I wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to 100.

True, but I did assistance work My point was, I found it benificial to just work on 2 exercises at a time, on their own days to really get the form down

 

[Left Hook Lacy]

I just wonder how much food intage matters for LP. In Jason Blahas novice program if you eat at maintenance youre supposed to do a "cutting version" where you only add weight every other time. So the progression might be more like the 531 beginner version, have never seen that beginner program.

Personally speaking, with assistance, Im glad I didnt do any because drilling more form of the main lifts was so important.

 

[En Sabah Nur]

I just wonder how much food intage matters for LP. In Jason Blahas novice program if you eat at maintenance youre supposed to do a "cutting version" where you only add weight every other time. So the progression might be more like the 531 beginner version, have never seen that beginner program.

Personally speaking, with assistance, Im glad I didnt do any because drilling more form of the main lifts was so important.

Here is the 5/3/1 beginner program:

Monday
Squat – 5/3/1 sets/reps
Bench – 55%x5, 65