What leg do you lead in the over/under clinch?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by MisterW, Aug 26, 2015.

  1. MisterW

    MisterW White Belt

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    The underhook leg? or the overhook leg? I had always led with the underhook leg until watching Jon Trenge's clinch domination video, where he advocates leading the overhook leg. I've been trying that out, and I like it, for the most part, but unfortunately I don't have experienced wrestlers as training partners, so it's hard to know if I might be making errors that someone better might capitalize on. I also recently had a pretty high quality wrestling coach tell me that he feels the underhook lead is much safer...

    What do you prefer? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?
     
  2. November

    November Yellow Belt

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    If you lead with the overhook leg you can have better control of the position especially if you are lower than the guy
     
  3. selfcritical

    selfcritical Brown Belt

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    Holt covered this recently but I can't remember the thread.
     
  4. MisterW

    MisterW White Belt

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    ^ Holt touched on it, but I was hoping he would elaborate a bit more.
     
  5. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Overhook. The idea is that leading with the underhook side leg (when the opponent has an opposite underhook) exposes you to the Polish and step-around bodylock, and I guess lateral drop as well if moving forward.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  6. LogicalError

    LogicalError Purple Belt

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    I typically lead with undertook side, I do believe it's safer. If they are able to dip/turn/roll you arm above the shoulder, you're likely getting your back taken as they come around the corner. You'd probably have to be lazy to allow that and I'm just playing it out in my head. That's if you lead with overhook side
     
  7. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Are you doing this from an over/under clinch, or a single underhook tie?
     
  8. LogicalError

    LogicalError Purple Belt

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    Either really, but I was specifically thinking over-under clinch
     
  9. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    This is key. If you have a tight over/under you can lead with the underhook leg (I always do, mostly because of my Judo background), but when getting the underhook in the first place it can be dangerous to lead with that leg. Reason being that you're over committing to that side as you reach and that commitment leaves you open to arm throws among other things. I think this is slightly mitigated if you're taking a very shallow underhook or keeping more of a square stance, but in any case a big reach forward with your front leg hand is usually a bad idea.
     
  10. MisterW

    MisterW White Belt

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    It seems like leading within the underhook leg does open up the possibility of easier step around body locks for the opponent.

    What are some advantages of an underhook lead? Or disadvantages of an overhook lead?
     
  11. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    The big advantage of an underhook lead IMO comes in opposite stance situations. If you have your right foot forward and uke has his left forward, and you have an underhook, it greatly facilitates inside trips, hip throws, and dropping to a single leg. In same stance situations I find it very hard to even get a lead leg underhook, much less use it. I suppose in general I just like to have an underhook on uke's lead leg side because it makes attacking that leg so much easier. With an overhook lead in opposite stance you still have the hip throws (though I think they're less powerful), but it's very hard to shoot a single against a guy underhook you on that side. You do gain the Metzger but that's usually more of a counter than a direct attack in my (admittedly limited) experience.
     
  12. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    I wrestled left handed (left leg lead) but was right handed. So I found it relatively easy to get a lead leg (left side underhook) from clubbing with my right hand and digging in the hook. However I usually didn't get an over-under from there because my opponents sunk low, trying to clear the tie. Making it extremely easy to simply club their head again and get a front-headlock and underhook very easily
     
  13. Kozbot

    Kozbot Purple Belt

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    This is the opposite of what Holt said?
     
  14. youngsteinel

    youngsteinel Silver Belt

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    Lead with your overhook leg side. If you lead with the underhook leg side, your opponent has an easy step around throw. Personally, my only move from over/unders that I will hit is an inside trip, which I hit to the overhook side. Good luck.
     
  15. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    My understanding of what Holt was talking about was more when you're reaching for a deep underhook. You're pretty vulnerable to arm throws and body locks then. However, if you already have an over/under clinch you can lead with your underhook side. You need to be aware of the risk of some form of body lock throw, but it's hardly a given. Judo guys do it constantly and don't typically get suplexed (my standup mainly comes from Judo). Frankly once you have the over/under you're generally so close that your stance is more square than leading largely with one for or the other, making the question less meaningful. Also, I only lead with the underhook side in an opposite stance situation, which changes the dynamic.

    I could be wrong and Holt is certainly much, much more experienced than I in wrestling clinches, but from years of Judo and also some MMA clinch fighting this has been my experience.
     
  16. MisterW

    MisterW White Belt

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    ^^ But they were starting with the over/under clinch in the video that holt was commenting on. I thought he was saying, as others have in this thread, that an underhook lead while in the clinch makes it easier for your opponent to hit the step around body lock.
     
  17. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    I don't understand how it would be that easy. They are going to be covering the side you are underhooking on, and they may be fishing for their own underhook or collar tie on the other side. I feel like I'd need to see a video or highlight or something. The way I feel it, if someone tries to step around and body lock you, you just resist it and face them. It isn't like you are a sleeping goldfish.

    I mean, many people teach the lead leg on underhook side. If it were so vulnerable, wouldn't it have worked itself out?

    I don't have the answer, which is why I'm commenting. I'd like to see this get hashed out more. Right now this strikes me they way people advocate the teep over the side kick (or side teep) in kick boxing because the side kick can expose your back, to which I say, "I guess, but look at all the good side kicks people throw."

    A friend of mine takes Judo at an old, traditional academy. He recently showed me how to pass closed overhook guard with broken posture by jamming your free arm through their legs and prying them apart. Those guys evidently don't care about triangles after all these years so, who knows.
     
  18. Dirty Holt

    Dirty Holt Black Belt Professional Fighter

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    When getting an underhook, it is very, very difficult to get it while leading with the opposite side leg, and even hard to keep it that way. With a single underhook, you want your underhook side leg AS DEEP AS POSSIBLE as long as your opponent does not have an underhook on the opposite side. Why? Because you gain far more control of their hips, and you stop overhook moves such as arm throws and carrys.

    When in an over/under, you almost always want your overhook side leg forward. Of course, when moving, at some points your underhook leg is going to come forward, but you dont want it there for long. If you have a guy that is just sitting in terrible position or you are re-adjusting to ratchet your underhook up for a fraction of a second, yes, it is okay. Why? Because when your underhook leg is forward, you will get step around bodylocked. In addition, you have now lost any ability to stop a sag body lock other than trying to stop his head from bending back, which only eliminates high amplitude throws; you will still get sag bodylocked.
     
  19. SummerStriker

    SummerStriker Black Belt

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    Thanks Holt! I never knew the term "sag" body lock.
     
  20. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    This is why I asked the other poster if it was a single underhook or over/under situation. I love working the reverse headlock from a single underhook, in which case getting deep as hell with that same side lead leg is key.
     

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