What is the deal with Holly Holm

[PivotPunch]

There is a discussion in the UFC forum but I#d rather hear the opinion of people who actually know what they are talking about.

She is the seemingly worst elite boxer I've ever seen. Say what you want about the level of female boxing but female MMA is an even younger sport.

Ffs she is one of the most accomplished female boxers EVER. Yet seemingly 90% of her strikes are a lead left, she has little in terms of jabs and only the occasional lead hook. Meh headmovement, feels uncomfortable to stand her ground even against average MMA strikers and she is So uncomfortable on the lead and her left hand falls short regularly.

How can you be that accomplished a boxer and struggle that much? Her kicks are her best weapon if anything. You would even from a not so great boxer at least expect that they are semi comfortable in exchanges with lesser strikers. Yet she was hesitating even against Betche any many other opponents.

You cant blame the threta of the TD Betche among others isn't a great wrestler and Holm is really strong in clinches. The only one who punished her on the ground was Misha Tate who fought the fight of her life and is actually a decent grappler.

Pat Barry had arguably the worst wrestling and grapplin in the mdoern history of the UFC and he wasnt as gunshy.

What is the deal with supposed ATG female boxing champ Holly Holm? I really think many of the lesser female boxers would do better in the striking aspect of MMA let alone some like Mathis who knocked her out once and lost at a later point.

Holm is athletic, is very very strong, has an ok chin, is big, very very good stamina and while she is not a pucnher by any means that's mostly because of her awkward striking and her physical attributes still allowed her to knock down Shevchenko.

How can someone with those attributes on paper underperform that bad against MMA strikers out of all people.

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

I've wondered this myself but I can't bring myself to watch a Holly Holm fight and figure it out.

 

[Higus]

Holm is athletic, is very very strong, has an ok chin, is big, very very good stamina

Hate to be that guy, but there it is. You can't write off attributes like that, especially for women's combat sports.

 

[aerius]

Because she wasn't trained by a boxing coach. If you look at the Jackson-Winklejohn gym in general, the fighters have poor boxing fundamentals, why would you expect Holly to be an exception?

Take a look at any training video of Holly sparring or hitting pads you'll see that she stands at a totally different range than she does in her MMA fights. In training she's right in the pocket banging out punches and sometimes she's so close that she actually jams her own punches whereas in MMA she's way out on the outside where she has to take 1-2 steps just to get into range. Problem. She throws her punches the same way in fights that she does in training, and you wonder why the first couple punches always come up short unless the opponent closes the gap and runs face first into them like Ronda.

In boxing it wasn't as bad since Holly setup at a closer range where she could usually run in with a combo and connect a couple times before falling into the clinch or having her opponent get away. Holly had the athletic attributes to repeat that over & over until time expired and she won on points, she mostly beat her opponents through pure athleticism.

Problem in MMA is that Holly, her coaches, or both, have no damn clue how to translate her skills into the cage. They have her setup way out of range on the outside and avoid the pocket & clinch at all costs. Which gives her opponents more space & time to run away when they see her start a combo which is part of why she misses so often. Or if they're good strikers like de Randamie and Shevchenko, they can easily read her attacks and counter them.

Finally, I think Holly is a very rote puncher. They taught her to throw punches & combos a certain way in training and she just does it the exact same way in fights without adjusting her setups, range, or punch selection in any way. It's like she has a punch macro A, B, and C, and she just keeps doing A, B, and C over & over again regardless of what punches are landing or what openings her opponent is giving her. She's not adjusting her setups & punches to create & exploit openings the way Joanna does.

Overall, Holly is one of the most frustrating fighters to watch. She could be so much better, but she isn't, and worse yet, she's stagnated.

 

[PivotPunch]

@Higus but usually being physically superier does the opposite to fighters and they start to simply bully their opponents with their physicality. Yet she is fighting like she is going against Bob Sapp with prime Tyson's skill.

@aerius Yeah I'm not that fond of Winklejohn as a striking goach either. But with the experience she has you would think that even a robotic fighter if you will would figure out some things on their own. It's not like her opponents are trained by Eddie Futch yet they are more comfortable to exchange than she is. It's not like Winklejohn is THAT bad somehow Condit figured some stuff out as did Dodson (not saying I think their styles are perfect and that they couldn't have been even better).

since she trains at such a close range and is robotic how come she is that uncomfortable in fights at that range? She also doesn't need to be that scared of getting close she ragdolls 99% of the division in the clinch based on physicality alone and she isn't bad in the clinch which she proved vs Ronda

 

[bobthebuilder]

the standard of female boxing is much higher now that it is an olympic sport. Prior to 2012 it wasn't, and the standard was low.

 

[strike thought]

I'll be honest, for her boxing background, after seeing her strike in MMA, I'm a bit surprised about her lack of offensive rhythm with her hands. I usually find fighters with boxing backgrounds tend to have a diverse array of rhythm with their hands.


Her kicks are pretty devastating. She got quite a few knockouts with them. It might have something to do due with the fact that her legs are about the size of Brock Lesnar's tree trunk arms. It's very cool to see her integrate a more diverse kicking game with that recent question mark kick knockout she got. I would like to see her build more around her tree trunks.

 

[rmongler]

She won by being an infighter in boxing and she doesn't fight like an infighter in MMA.

 

[SMYD]

Ish ish ish ......ISH!


...........ISH!


Okay, but serious question. Does anyone know whether Holm trained under a boxing gym or Jackson/Wink when she was a boxer? Because apparently Winklejohn was her coach since she was a teenager, but he has no experience in boxing whatsoever...

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Mma gloves and the clinch is just so much more unforgiving in mma. Why even stand at punching range when you have the kicking advantage against 90% of your opponents

 

[aerius]

@aerius Yeah I'm not that fond of Winklejohn as a striking goach either. But with the experience she has you would think that even a robotic fighter if you will would figure out some things on their own. It's not like her opponents are trained by Eddie Futch yet they are more comfortable to exchange than she is. It's not like Winklejohn is THAT bad somehow Condit figured some stuff out as did Dodson (not saying I think their styles are perfect and that they couldn't have been even better).

That's a good question. My guess is that Holly is a little too good at following instructions. With guys like Condit or god forbid Leonard Garcia, once the punches start flying and they start getting hit they go back to their natural instincts and start throwing down. Condit will follow a general gameplan but he's still flexible enough to keep adjusting things on his own until he finds something that works, at which point he exploits the hell out of it.

Holly for whatever reason doesn't do that, I used to think it was her fixed in stone style but the last fight has changed my mind. Normally, Holly is a very high volume striker, she'll throw 50-60 strikes every round for the entire fight even if she misses 3/4 of them. In the Correia fight her volume went down a ton, she was only throwing half as many strikes as usual and from what I gather this was part of the plan. They told her to be patient and pick her shots and that's exactly what happened, her volume went way down and her connection rate was higher than normal. I think Holly just follows instructions to a T instead of using them as a guideline or creatively interpreting them like Condit.

since she trains at such a close range and is robotic how come she is that uncomfortable in fights at that range? She also doesn't need to be that scared of getting close she ragdolls 99% of the division in the clinch based on physicality alone and she isn't bad in the clinch which she proved vs Ronda

Heck if I know. I'm guessing it's somehow related to the above but your guess is as good as mine. I think her coaches tell her to stay on the outside so that's what she does. Maybe we can get Winklejohn to tell her to throw down in the last 10 seconds of a fight like Holloway vs. Lamas and see what happens.

 

[Uchi Mata]

@Higus but usually being physically superier does the opposite to fighters and they start to simply bully their opponents with their physicality. Yet she is fighting like she is going against Bob Sapp with prime Tyson's skill.

@aerius Yeah I'm not that fond of Winklejohn as a striking goach either. But with the experience she has you would think that even a robotic fighter if you will would figure out some things on their own. It's not like her opponents are trained by Eddie Futch yet they are more comfortable to exchange than she is. It's not like Winklejohn is THAT bad somehow Condit figured some stuff out as did Dodson (not saying I think their styles are perfect and that they couldn't have been even better).

since she trains at such a close range and is robotic how come she is that uncomfortable in fights at that range? She also doesn't need to be that scared of getting close she ragdolls 99% of the division in the clinch based on physicality alone and she isn't bad in the clinch which she proved vs Ronda

The Gibson factor is a big deal when talking about strikers coming out of Jackson-Wink. The guys who have trained extensively with Gibson tend to have better boxing and a much better feel for the correct range for their punches than the pure Wink people. That was a big change in Cerrone's game when he started working more with Gibson, it really helped his boxing. I don't know how much Holly trains with him but her style looks pretty like it always has, which is to say very Wink trained. Condit spent a lot of time with Gibson and it really helped his distance management and creativity.

One thing I don't really see mentioned here (maybe it was and I just missed it) is that Holly fights in a really unbalanced stance, she has most of her weight forward all the time which means there's very little weight transfer in her punches (so, a lot less power) and she has to run after people to hit them since she can't close distance by leaning forward (since she's already so far forward). She does best when people run onto her punches like Ronda, anyone who doesn't she struggles to generate significant power. Even her boxing fights didn't feature a lot of KOs, she was mostly a volume/swarmer type fighter up against much, much lesser athletes.

Holly came in really hyped, but frankly I don't think she's ever been that impressive in the cage with the exception of the Ronda fight. If you look at who she was given prior to Rousey, it was pretty clear that the UFC wanted to fast track her to the title so she got fairly good style matchups and still didn't look good. Ronda was the perfect style matchup for her and to her credit she came into that fight with a great game plan and executed it flawlessly, but that one performance shouldn't conceal the fact that her UFC run has not really been marked by amazing performances.

 

[roventu]

she grew up in an MMA gym, she's always been a kickboxer (not simply a boxer), just went into boxing for the money. The question shouldn't be how she does well in MMA, it should be how she did so well in boxing lol

she wins her fights through her kicks (side kicks, headkicks, obique kicks), the punches she throws hits air and are only a distraction to setup those kicks and scare her opponents into moving back where she can still hit them with kicks

 

[AndyMaBobs]

There is a discussion in the UFC forum but I#d rather hear the opinion of people who actually know what they are talking about.

She is the seemingly worst elite boxer I've ever seen. Say what you want about the level of female boxing but female MMA is an even younger sport.

Ffs she is one of the most accomplished female boxers EVER. Yet seemingly 90% of her strikes are a lead left, she has little in terms of jabs and only the occasional lead hook. Meh headmovement, feels uncomfortable to stand her ground even against average MMA strikers and she is So uncomfortable on the lead and her left hand falls short regularly.

How can you be that accomplished a boxer and struggle that much? Her kicks are her best weapon if anything. You would even from a not so great boxer at least expect that they are semi comfortable in exchanges with lesser strikers. Yet she was hesitating even against Betche any many other opponents.

You cant blame the threta of the TD Betche among others isn't a great wrestler and Holm is really strong in clinches. The only one who punished her on the ground was Misha Tate who fought the fight of her life and is actually a decent grappler.

Pat Barry had arguably the worst wrestling and grapplin in the mdoern history of the UFC and he wasnt as gunshy.

What is the deal with supposed ATG female boxing champ Holly Holm? I really think many of the lesser female boxers would do better in the striking aspect of MMA let alone some like Mathis who knocked her out once and lost at a later point.

Holm is athletic, is very very strong, has an ok chin, is big, very very good stamina and while she is not a pucnher by any means that's mostly because of her awkward striking and her physical attributes still allowed her to knock down Shevchenko.

How can someone with those attributes on paper underperform that bad against MMA strikers out of all people.

I can't really respond to all of it, but she's better than you think for.

While the talent pool is lower, she probably is the best female boxer save for probably Lucia Rijker. She beat everyone she fought, and some of her wins came over some pretty good fighters (considering that talent pool).

Some of the things you mention, like straight lead lefts aren't really weird or dumb things to do as a southpaw, in fact a lot of southpaws use a straight left over a jab a lot of the time - it's not really the sign of a poor boxer.

In boxing she was this bizarre mix of an infighter with legitimately excellent defensive pivoting footwork that made her very hard to catch. Which is what lead to most of her victories, she was NEVER a very accurate puncher - but there's a lot more to boxing than being great at punching. Something I would mention though in MMA is that she is getting older and already had a long career in boxing which probably hasn't helped her much.

She's not a perfect fighter by any means, but I think calling her bad is a stretch. I think if anything a lot of it also has to do with less rounds to work in as well as the fact that she isn't Just trying to box, but kickbox.

 

[ARIZE]

Some of the things you mention, like straight lead lefts aren't really weird or dumb things to do as a southpaw, in fact a lot of southpaws use a straight left over a jab a lot of the time - it's not really the sign of a poor boxer.

To add to that, for a southpaw, a straight left, while slipping to the right + the step to the outside, is one of the most powerful and safest strike to their arsenal, specially if used as a counter to an orthodox's jab... So as Andy said, a lot of southpaws throw the straight lead lefts like orthodox throws the jab...

 

[98bird]

"ish-ish-ish"....boring ass, Karate Points Fighter.

Winklejohn is a Karatechop guy. I think Jackson may be one too, with Wrestling. They made it work in MMA and are very successful, but it doesn't mean that they produce great Boxers. Women's Boxing is just nowhere near the regular Boxing.

Dana White even said that they take great, exciting fighters and turn them into boring ones.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

^ I think Dana is talking out of his arse.

I'd rather fighters fight in a way that they still have the ability to hold their grand-kids later on in life than just brawl. Besides, Carlos Condit, Donald Cerrone, Jon Jones, Alistair Overeem, Andrei Arlovski... not exactly a boring stable of fighters.

 

[PivotPunch]

Now I know that they had completely different styls in boxing but looking at Heather Hardy I'm really disappointed in Holm. Hardy had a really tough first MMA fight. her opponent wasn't anything spe cial but really tough and not a horrible striker either by female MMA standards.
Hardy does not have a kickboxing background, she was not trained in a MMA gym (that I know of) during her boxing days yet she was everything but gunshy.
Also her fucking sidesteps to punches were sweet her footwork and headmovement was really good even by male MMA standards. She sometimes didn't do the right things in the clinch and was simply content to exchange punches for knees there but wow she has potential. Only thing is her age but if male MMA fighters can last to their early 40s then she should be able to do it against mostly lesser athletes.

Also the UFC shit the bed introducing a FW divsiion instead of a 125 division in female MMA. Now they will be stuck trying to build that division which is hard and while Bellator got Hardy who at least int he beginning of the division could be it's face before it gets more competitive and instead have a division with about 3 fighters

 

[PivotPunch]

@AndyMaBobs @ARIZE

It's not that she leads with straight rights it's that she doesn't set them up. Nor does she explode forward and just go for it like Roy Jones or someone like that would do. She just stands in regukar striking range and throws single straight. Sometimes she sets them up with he rleft kicks or vice versa like Crocop but prue boxing wise she does not set them up.
If you go to the extreme (to the very best) take RIgondeaux. he throws a shit load of left hands with very little jabbing (even if he does have a decent right hook) but he still sets the left punches up. Either by pawing or with right hooks or with footwork or with feints. But he does set them up. Holly Holm doesn't even have great footwork i n that sense she cna move but only if her opponent pressures her. She has no OFFENSIVE footwork she just stands there and throws single left straight without attacking on an angle

 

[Minowafanatic]

Holly Holm fights nothing in MMA like how she did in boxing. She was a genuinely great boxer though relative to the women's game.

It seems like she is just super hesitant in MMA to fight at a range where she could actually let her hands go, and her whole MMA style has been built around the idea that she needs to avoid the clinch and avoid getting taken down at all costs. It's like, from the beginning, they figured they have a great boxer on their hands, everyone is going to try to take her down, let's have her stay way out on the outside and play counterpuncher as opponents rush in for the TD.

Even if she's not become the greatest ever female MMAist, she's still done very well in her transition. Female MMA is a younger sport, but there's also been no money in female professional boxing, to the extent that a lot of the best boxing talent never bothered to leave the amateurs, too, so I think their talent pools are much more equivalent than in the men's game where there's a huge amount more depth in boxing. I think women's boxing will pull ahead more now though with the Olympians turning professional and more focus being placed on it by promoters and broadcasters.

Heather Hardy won't find nearly the same success as Holm has done. Not close to as athletic as Holm, and her style will see her vulnerable to TDs and to leg kicks.