What is it about Karate point fighting that disturbs MMA fighters?

[Fahcough]

You don't get any of that from steroids.

 

[MechMA]

We saw Machida go 15-0 and Burns looking very passive and gun shy against Thompson in the stand up.

What is it about point Karate, which people used to make fun of (including MMA guys) that disturbs orthodox MMA striking? Shouldn't MMA striking encompass whatever it is those guys are doing?

Edit: didnt read OP before writing and made an assumption about what the thread was haha... ill keep my original response below, but to answer your question its simply because its not a very common style to see used effectively... every mma fighter has beaten up some karate nerds in the gym, but very few ever get to spar someone who uses it as effectively as Thompson or Machida... so its alien to them, and unfamiliarity breeds caution.

As someone who did Karate for over a decade and MMA for nearly a decade, its the fact that its more tag than combat.
Flicking kicks and such that would do little to no harm will award a point as if it was some deadly blow.
Point karate competition was directly ripped from Kendo competition where a strike halted the match, as the idea was that it had killed or maimed the opponent.

Karate acts the same... meaning one tag and its over.

While in a real fight, things like combinations are a thing and people tend to end up tangled and throwing repeated strikes.

When transitioning into MMA, meaning I was taking Muay Thai and Boxing, I was absolutely phenomenal (compared to other newbies) at getting out of harms way and bouncing back in to land a single strike... but...
I couldnt throw combos, i couldn't defend combos beyond retreating entirely, looping punches were like magic to me, and a solid jab kept me often bouncing around worried about jumping in.

It is simply not that practical for a real fistfight or our closest simulation within popular sport which is MMA.

That said, my style certainly would be better equipped to deal with a knife wielder than say... a boxer, as shelling against a knife still gets you sliced and stabbed and id be in practically a different zipcode asap

Muay Thai and Boxing are simply more suited to the unarmed fighting within MMA

 

[GUY]

We saw Machida go 15-0 and Burns looking very passive and gun shy against Thompson in the stand up.

What is it about point Karate, which people used to make fun of (including MMA guys) that disturbs orthodox MMA striking? Shouldn't MMA striking encompass whatever it is those guys are doing?

they work a lot on timming and reflexes. Also most of them are striking since they were kids. Most people comming from karate will just not be tough enough to compete in MMA. If you find the ones that have perfect technique and are tough enough you have a good MMA striker.

 

[MechMA]

You use two examples out of thousands of unsucessful karate fighters in mma. I come from karate background and Machida is the absolute exception to the norm. Thompson has roots in Karate but is more of a kickboxer in fighting and training. Karate as a base doesnt bring that much into mma if you only did point fighting. Machida is a once in a generation talent. He would have succeded with near any base.

THere is a reason why in the big mma teams were its all about winning championships MT and boxing rule with an iron fist regarding stand up. As good as Machida even was the Shogun match up was a fantastic clash of styles and showed the strenght of karate at absolute elite level but also its glaring weaknesses.

As a fellow kareteka i have to disagree about your Thompson comment.

Thompson fights more like a kareteka than even Machida... Machida took a LOT of muay thai into his karate base, while wonderboy was a clear as day karate guy both through his kickboxing days as well as mma...

He literally has the back and forth side stance, the in and out hopping, the sidekick spam, you name it. Thompson is the purest karate fighter within the 2000s+ era ever to be in the top 10 imho

 

[Dana's Moonface]

Karate is bs on it's own, but from someone that used to do it as a kid, it teaches you distance and great timing. The problem Modern Karate has is the lack of full sparring and conditioning.

Karate is useful if someone adds it to their arsenal and doesn't hold back their power

Karate Conor is a bit of a meme, as I don't think he has ever officially studied the art, but what he did with Aldo was Karate like, only he wasn't going for the point, he was looking to take his head off

 

[kingghidrah]

Machida had an annoying style due to hids grappling credentials coupled with that odd style. But he is nowhere near the best point fighter and he still became champion.

So... Shogun - Machida didn't prove jack shit. Bring in a multiple world champ like Rafael Aghayev, who is a a beast at takedowns in Karate and a stronger technician than Machida

Sorry Wikipedia says he's busy:
"Rafael's calendar is very eventful because he has many fans around the world, who are waiting for his arrival with great impatience."

 

[kingghidrah]

You don't get any of that from steroids.

Not sure if joking...

 

[Starman]

You don’t get improved reaction time from steroids.

You may see marginal increases in power, but not core strength and certainly not punching power.

I think speed increases occur in tenths of a second, but not sure how much speed it gives in terms of hand speed. Not much, if any, I’d reckon.

 

[Tito Tapped]

There's a lot of shit I learned as a competitive point fighter that translates well into MMA and gives people fits in sparring.

 

[ITsallinthegifs]

Machida was juiced

Just like your boy Brock Lesnar

 

[MartiniSIDe]

You don’t get improved reaction time from steroids.

You may see marginal increases in power, but not core strength and certainly not punching power.

I think speed increases occur in tenths of a second, but not sure how much speed it gives in terms of hand speed. Not much, if any, I’d reckon.

If you're in better shape because of steroids, your reaction time will get better. For exemple, in the 3rd round where you're normally exhausted, your reaction time might be better if you put a needle in that buttocks from time to time.

Im no doctor, so dont quote me on that.

 

[TriangleMonkey]

Its a style that is really hard to make work in mma. Only really good ones that adapt make it work.

Most guys with those backgrounds dont attend mma gyms, so typical mma guys arent use to those attacks being successful.

Even the successful ones in mma always lack in the ground fighting.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

We saw Machida go 15-0 and Burns looking very passive and gun shy against Thompson in the stand up.

What is it about point Karate, which people used to make fun of (including MMA guys) that disturbs orthodox MMA striking? Shouldn't MMA striking encompass whatever it is those guys are doing?

Because even if that style is overall useless, it can be very disruptive from the few guys on earth who can make it work.

 

[neomage2021]

We saw Machida go 15-0 and Burns looking very passive and gun shy against Thompson in the stand up.

What is it about point Karate, which people used to make fun of (including MMA guys) that disturbs orthodox MMA striking? Shouldn't MMA striking encompass whatever it is those guys are doing?

Because Machida would KTFO you...

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

and then makes them really pensive about attacking aggressivley.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

He is the epitome of a Karate fighter transfering his skillset to mma and thats what we are talking about. He trained at an elite level from childhood on and is without a doubt the greatest Karateka in MMA of all time. He did train mostly in Shotokan style which is point fighting light contact.

But Machida also has a strong Sumo base.

Machida also didn't use pure/conventional shotokan. I think there is an interview out there where he says that in his variation of shotokan, katas are not really trained because they are mostly useless, or something like that.

At the same time, kata is an enormous focus in plain-vanilla shotokan, which helps to explain why it is generally an inferior style.

 

[TheMMAnalyst]

We saw Machida go 15-0 and Burns looking very passive and gun shy against Thompson in the stand up.

What is it about point Karate, which people used to make fun of (including MMA guys) that disturbs orthodox MMA striking? Shouldn't MMA striking encompass whatever it is those guys are doing?

MMA guys used to make fun of Karate as a stand-alone art because if it isn't adapted for MMA it is almost worthless in an MMA-context; the sideways stance that focuses on landing kicks and keeping distance at all costs means it's easy to be countered with more traditionally effective martial arts (wrestling/judo/boxing/jiu-jitsu) in an MMA scenario.

That doesn't mean there aren't tons of valuable skills and techniques to pull from Karate to use in MMA, it's just that Karate as a "base" it is very difficult to build around because of the inherent style and tactics it uses.

In theory of course MMA striking should utilize the strengths of this style, it's just in developing that style it takes away from other tactics, so unless you have absolute supreme confidence in being able to continually use footwork, feints, and defensive maneuvers to keep your opponent at range it's difficult to employ. Learning how to move and read opponents like the highest-level karate fighters we've ever seen (Machida/Wonderboy) isn't easily achieved, especially if you don't have already have really high-level foot speed and footwork + confidence in your ability to make reads and blitz attack. And if you don't also have the clinch/ground skills then you are essentially fucked the second you make a mistake, so it becomes an increasingly dangerous line to walk since every strike attempt (even if successful) can get you clinched/taken down.

 

[SteveDog]

You don't get any of that from steroids.

Sure you do. Just to name a few athletes that were caught. These sports all rely on speed, reaction time and power. World class sprinters Ben Johnson, Justin Gatlin, Tyson Gay, Marion Jones. Baseball sluggers McGwire, Conseco, Sosa, Bonds. NFL players Julius Peppers, Romanowski, Merriman and many more. Boxers Roy Jones, Shane Mosley, Mayorga, Toney, Viyali Klitschko. MMA greats Jones, Cyborg Santos, Lesnar, Tibau, Lombard and many more. Listed above are only a few that got caught. Of course they all train very hard. Natural gifts, Hard training plus roids makes super human athletes

 

[bambammccoy]

I think alot of it is most fighters aren't used to simultaneous counters outside of crossing over the jab or check hooking a rushing opponent.

Makes guys way more tentative or way too aggressive sometimes.

 

[kflo]

What did they modify from Karate stand-up to MMA? I don't see anything.

You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

Someone coming from a strict point fighting background is a fish out of water when it’s not point / reset.