What can be done to fix Karate?

[toasty]

Why less adults train

time & money (you spend them with\on your kid if you are a good parent)
work - usually last more than 40 hours a week and leaves you no energy to train. plus they tend to look at you funny when you show up after lunch with a swollen black eye...)
Wife- ususally wants some of your time and can resent it if you are trying to train 8 to 10 hours a week
responsibilities- hard to tell family and friends you have no time for them cause you need to learn a high roundhouse kick better)

these are some of the reasons i'm on hiatus...that and I'm just slow, lazy and sick of taking beating after beating since I started traing at such a late age......

 

[countlphie]

the reason why people find katas (forms) worthless is that a lot of people are in such a damn rush to become good "fighters."

katas is not how you practice fighting. it's practicing how your mentality should be in a fight. with a flowing mind and a relaxed body. it is the greatest way to practice the very techniques of zen mediation while moving.

if you want to learn to brawl in a cage, go learn muay thai. it has been readily established that muay thai and bjj are the best in mma, and they can turn you into a fighting machine in the matter of a year or two.

if you want to become a true martial artist and follow that path, then you should go home and practice your forms for the rest of your life.

archaic as it sounds, that's the purpose of katas, and i'm a little surprised to find so many people who are interested in martial arts to shun katas so quickly.

 

[MarlboroMan]

shotokan karate has many things that need to be fixed.

1. doesnt have any contact in sparring
2. Teaches techniques like the "knife hand fist" or the "hammer strike"
3. spend half the class doing "katas"
4. Learn to be open-minded (alot of karate guys are in la-la land and think karate is deadly)
5. Stance is too robotic and square...wtf is the point of the horse stance and back stance?
6. Get rid of the belt system...its gay and it makes people act like nerds
6. the belt system is gay because fat and shitty people get promoted because people feel sorry for them.
7. Dont try to act like you can speak japanese just because you can say "seek perfection of character" in japanese

 

[MarlboroMan]

sorry i had to vent because shotokan karate is more geared as a cardio activity rather than actual fighting. I took it myself, and became a 1st degree black belt when I was 13. After taking it, I still did not feel comfortable getting into a fight with the years of training I received. Too many shotokan people think they are badass because they are black belts....the funny thing is alot of shotokan people are rich lawyers or business people who are afraid to get punched in the face so they take shotokan karate to try to feel important and powerful in a martial art that doesn incorporate actual realistic fighting.

 

[aaron_mag]

Why less adults train

time & money (you spend them with\on your kid if you are a good parent)
work - usually last more than 40 hours a week and leaves you no energy to train. plus they tend to look at you funny when you show up after lunch with a swollen black eye...)
Wife- ususally wants some of your time and can resent it if you are trying to train 8 to 10 hours a week
responsibilities- hard to tell family and friends you have no time for them cause you need to learn a high roundhouse kick better)

these are some of the reasons i'm on hiatus...that and I'm just slow, lazy and sick of taking beating after beating since I started traing at such a late age......

heh heh...

Yeah. That is pretty much it.

I swear to you that many adults would be in much better shape in their later years if it weren't for that job and those darn responsibilities...

 

[The Technical]

the reason why people find katas (forms) worthless is that a lot of people are in such a damn rush to become good "fighters."

The whole purpose of martial arts is an attempt to comprehend, regulate and refine combat; such purpose came way before mysticism and philosophy came along.

katas is not how you practice fighting. it's practicing how your mentality should be in a fight. with a flowing mind and a relaxed body. it is the greatest way to practice the very techniques of zen mediation while moving.

if you want to become a true martial artist and follow that path, then you should go home and practice your forms for the rest of your life.

If martial arts are ways to improve our combat capabilities (as specified above), and as you mentioned, "kata is not how you practice fighting", then it is obvious that something that does not help you gain a goal as good as something else should be replaced.

 

[flyingknee16]

You're generalizing karate too much however.

I have a friend who practiced Gojin-Ryu karate, and my god, I think he punches p4p harder than anyone I know, and he weighs only 130 lbs. He said they never sparred with any protective gear (only a cup sometimes), and they did knees to the head, knees to the body, elbows, everything. I sparred with him once and he really took it to me, he was a very tough kid. Maybe he was one of the lucky ones and he went to a decent karate school.

 

[devante]

all u have to do is work w/diff stylist and spar hard; plain and simple i have alot of friends who take karate and just worked w/ or sparred alot of diff stylist, through knuckling up they fine tuned their tech and learned what they could and could not apply in a streetfight or against a skillful opp.

An example i had a friend in college most of what he did was karate, he sparred w/alot of diff wrestlers and grapplers; before he was unable to eff get his kicks/knees/punches off he was just taken down gnp'ed or subbed.

As he trained w/them he eventuallly learned how to first determine what strikes he could get in before he was taken down or thrown; secondly he was eventually able to learn how to defend the takedowns.. trips or throws.... An finally he began to learn how to work his way back up once taken down.. It did not happen overnight; but he was openminded and determined not to let the holes in his prior exp keep him from becoming a eff fighter.....

he did the same sparring w/thai boxers judoka boxers etc; an while he is far from a finely tuned mma type he is more than capable of being eff when sparring or fighting guys who are trained in mma...

it's not what u take it's what u do w/it and how u open urself up to the diff arts and theories on fighting...

 

[devante]

on another point i have sparred w/alot of karate types who really spar hard and freely and all of them gave me as much or more trouble than some guys who practiced the more effective fighting arts". It is the person and the training they do, not the art.

certain arts have more limitations; but they can be overcome or patched if u spar realistically w/diff stylist or add certain elements to ur repetoire...


trust me i know people who do karate all kinds..including tkd..etc; an i have seen them knockout or beat up grapplers..boxers...wrestlers..and so on, not saying i have not seen them lose. Just saying i have also seen them win many a time.

 

[aaron_mag]

on another point i have sparred w/alot of karate types who really spar hard and freely and all of them gave me as much or more trouble than some guys who practiced the more effective fighting arts". It is the person and the training they do, not the art.

certain arts have more limitations; but they can be overcome or patched if u spar realistically w/diff stylist or add certain elements to ur repetoire...


trust me i know people who do karate all kinds..including tkd..etc; an i have seen them knockout or beat up grapplers..boxers...wrestlers..and so on, not saying i have not seen them lose. Just saying i have also seen them win many a time.

Ha ha...

I got taken down and subbed *before* UFC ever came out (I do ITF TKD). I think the main problem is that people think that is the end of the world or something. Anyone who has ever done any sort of training knows that you do well some days and you don't do well other days. You have some matches where you just dominate a guy and the next day he does the same to you.

I didn't even think about it when it happened. I jumped back up and said, "Wow! That was cool" and we started sparring again.

It wasn't until after UFC came out that everyone started saying, "Well X is useless now, because it will always get beat by Y."

I always just considered it training. You spar. You win some. You lose some. Either way you learn and get exercise. People put way too much thought into it.

I have the same attitude with my Sambo class. I go there. I spar. Sometimes I seem to do nothing right, but sometimes I do pretty well. Either way it is just fun. I'd do it if someone proved, without a doubt, that it is worthless in a streetfight. I do it because it is a fun way to get exercise and I like the camradarie of the class.

 

[feels]

In Kyokushin Karate, kata is used for power, speed, and breath control. It's one of many tools to improve basic techniques.

 

[karateka666]

shotokan karate has many things that need to be fixed.

1. doesnt have any contact in sparring
2. Teaches techniques like the "knife hand fist" or the "hammer strike"
3. spend half the class doing "katas"
4. Learn to be open-minded (alot of karate guys are in la-la land and think karate is deadly)
5. Stance is too robotic and square...wtf is the point of the horse stance and back stance?
6. Get rid of the belt system...its gay and it makes people act like nerds
6. the belt system is gay because fat and shitty people get promoted because people feel sorry for them.
7. Dont try to act like you can speak japanese just because you can say "seek perfection of character" in japanese

The Style that I trained in for most of my life was shotokan and I have to say.

1. Don't know what dojo you where training in or used to but stop. While I can't say that I know of any "full contact" shotokan schools, contact is kind of dubious. For example, the last national tournament I went to there were alot of guys that came home with broken noses (and allegedly there was supposed to be light to no contact to the face). By the way, before you even think it, the judges scored the shots.

2. I remember fighting an 'open circuit' (NASKA) guy who used to drop hammerfists on me and lots of other guys. Trust me, it is not a usesless technique. I am also pretty sure if you start getting hit with on the ground you wouldn't think that they were useless.

3. This really depends on which school and who the instructor is. Personally, when i teach (I'm shodan) I almost never teach kata (then again I am not too good in them either). Other schools might only teach kata and no fighting. I think the main problem, at least in the US is that most instructors don't know the real bunkai. I remember seeing a program on cable, Deadly Arts, where a women went to Okinawa and studied with masters of karate learning kata. Alot of footage was spent in the training of kata, but not just the robotic dance moves that we use in the US but the actual bunkai. The real infighting and trapping. It looked like a totally different art than most people practice here. I wouldn't mind practicing that. Here though, we have bs explanations for techniques in kata that make no kind of sense.

4. Karate can be deadly, just like any fighting art can be deadly. Heck, I remember my head instructor teaching us as white belts how to break necks. The thing is not too many people train in the way so that they are dangerous.

5. Horse stance is used to kick (side, roundhouse, hook) Ryoto Machida has used it a couple of times during MMA matches. Back Stance is often used to kick with the front foot (i.e. front kick) it can also be used for a quick counter such as shifting into front stance and striking with a jab or reverse punch while they are still stepping in to attack (this is used in traditional point fighting). I would have to agree about the rigidness of stances: for all the rigidness in the training of stances, you find that you may use some composite of stances or a modified stance but never the exact one that you trained in. For example I can't say that I ever saw a top level karateka that ever fought in a textbook, front, back or side stance.

6. To me, having taught classes the belt system helps me guage what I should be teaching students. I really don't know how 'gay' it is (I really don't hear to many people saying the the belt system in bjj is gay because it makes people act like nerds). As for the whole fat people getting adn shitty people getting promoted, I think you have to look at what the belts represent in karate: a basic proficiency in the skills of karate, which don't take much. Even shodan is really considered a beginning of real training and not the end of training. Thus theoretically, anyone can get a black belt if they study long enough, much like a HS diploma. On the other hand, in BJJ only a few elite will ever be a bb: kind of like the navy seals or rhodes scholarship. I don't really think this really needs to be changed. Ask a real karate black belt what a black belt means and they will tell you it doesn't mean that much and you can buy one out of a catalog (though maybe a black belt from their school may mean something). It really comes down to how well you can fight and in real schools, belts don't matter in that department.

7. Using Japanese terminology is for two reasons as I know it. One so that no matter where you train you know what a gyaku zuki is and what a mae geri is. And two, inorder to keep the cultural heritage. While the latter reason may not have any meaning to you since you aren't Japanese and possibly don't care, the former reason is very important. For example when I bought tapes from guys like Cristophe Pinna from France, I might not know what a lik of French, but I am do know what a gyaku zuki is. By the way, I don't that much about Muay Thai, but I do know that bjj does use brazillian terminology (mata keo) and at least from what I have seen from Japanese boxing/kickboxing they use english terminology (thought that may be a special case if you know what I mean).

Karateka666

 

[karateka666]

sorry i had to vent because shotokan karate is more geared as a cardio activity rather than actual fighting. I took it myself, and became a 1st degree black belt when I was 13. After taking it, I still did not feel comfortable getting into a fight with the years of training I received. Too many shotokan people think they are badass because they are black belts....the funny thing is alot of shotokan people are rich lawyers or business people who are afraid to get punched in the face so they take shotokan karate to try to feel important and powerful in a martial art that doesn incorporate actual realistic fighting.

Actually Shotokan people come from all walks of life. I am sure that if you go to alot of hoods you will find people training in shotokan karate or who have trained in and trust me on one thing they aren't afraid to get punched in the face. The thing is there are plenty of people who train in all types of styles in the upper classes and most of them don't really want to get hurt. There is no real need for them to fight. Now step into the ghettos, barrios, reservations and trailer parks and you will meet people who see fighting as a necessary part of survival. Furthermore, I think you will find more of the 'effective arts' in the areas where the guys 'who are afraind of getting hit in the face' live. Two possible exceptions are bosing (where there is a real impudice to train people) and wrestling (though not really popular where I live it is more of a working class sport).

Karateka666

 

[itsthelimit]

Er box ....or do Muay Thai....drop the Karate

 

[thaiking]

Lke I said earleir the onky karate I like is KKyukushinkai especially JOn Blumming version, no kata. Kill the kata train full contact and then you have saved karate

 

[Madmick]

You're generalizing karate too much however.

I have a friend who practiced Gojin-Ryu karate, and my god, I think he punches p4p harder than anyone I know, and he weighs only 130 lbs. He said they never sparred with any protective gear (only a cup sometimes), and they did knees to the head, knees to the body, elbows, everything. I sparred with him once and he really took it to me, he was a very tough kid. Maybe he was one of the lucky ones and he went to a decent karate school.

That's what my instructor learned (he was also a pro Muay Thai fighter and Pro Boxer), and he's pretty vicious with out self-defense (i.e MMA-illegal) stuff. He learned from an Okinawan.

He doesn't have much respect for Kenpo or other American styles of Karate and their form of practice in general.

He also doesn't believe in Katas for fighting, but he knows them, and will teach them if asked.

Let's not be too derisive of kata; it's their rigidity that is their weakness. After all, shadowboxing is formless kata, nothing more.

 

[Ayin]

Damn, you beat me to it. Yeah, I am amazed at how many people forget that boxing has tons of Katas, everytime I stand in the ring and move side to side or step in circles doing combinations I am practising Katas, it is just that the Japanese shadow boxing has been written down a long time ago so no one forgot it.
Here is a question for everyone on the forum that does serious Karate: Did you ever learn movement? I know there is a lot of time spent on stances, but does anyone ever learn how to move around?
I don't think Stances need to be elminated, they are just misunderstood. Stances (in my opinion, but let me back this up) are the end result of movement, where you have placed yourself in a position to attack. This is why you learn techniques from the stance, it is assumed you have moved into attack position and must now actualy attack. And to those who think that Stances are never used in MMA, consider this: Both Vitor Belfort and Phil Baroni have shown exellent horse stances in MMA fights, and I doubt either of them know it. Many stances are natural end movements for attack.