What are some standards of Jiujitsu?

[Shemhazai]

I disagree with that. Even from a basic half-guard, and even with my back flattened to the mat, I hit plenty of sweeps from wrapping an overhook, other hand on their hip, disrupting their base by moving their trapped leg across the mat, and sorta shrimping/rolling towards the side with the overhook.

I'd say that's just as valid as the underhook, and I feel just as likely to get my guard passed with either.

Sure, you can hit a few legit moves from bad positions, but that doesn't make those bad positions 'just as valid' as more advantageous positions. The point is that your opponent has much more control over you when your back is flat on the mat and he has the underhook, and more importantly, his array of options is far greater than yours. This is the reason why people prefer to pull certain half guards (i.e. on side with underhook, foot on hip, deep half, half butterfly, inverted half) while eschewing others (i.e. underhooked and cross-faced, opponent has back turned, reverse half guard, etc.): The former variants offer lots of offensive options for the bottom player, whereas the latter offer very few.

Now, if you feel just as likely to get passed whether you have an underhook or an overhook when playing a 'basic' half guard, I'm curious as to the level of your sparring partners.

 

[HomerPlata]

Sure, you can hit a few legit moves from bad positions, but that doesn't make those bad positions 'just as valid' as more advantageous positions. The point is that your opponent has much more control over you when your back is flat on the mat and he has the underhook, and more importantly, his array of options is far greater than yours. This is the reason why people prefer to pull certain half guards (i.e. on side with underhook, foot on hip, deep half, half butterfly, inverted half) while eschewing others (i.e. underhooked and cross-faced, opponent has back turned, reverse half guard, etc.): The former variants offer lots of offensive options for the bottom player, whereas the latter offer very few.

Now, if you feel just as likely to get passed whether you have an underhook or an overhook when playing a 'basic' half guard, I'm curious as to the level of your sparring partners.

Explain how that relates to my sparring partners.

 

[InvertedBJJ]

Best unpracticed standard by many is... wash your gi after every class.

 

[Shemhazai]

Explain how that relates to my sparring partners.

Well, my experience is that high level guys make you pay much more for giving up the underhook. But maybe your sparring partners specialize in "wrong side" passes (back-step passes, reverse knee-cut passes, etc.), I dunno.

 

[Calibur]

Explain how that relates to my sparring partners.

Because a guy with decent experience will absolutely BLITZ an overhook faster than he would to an underhook. People like Mike Fowler who used to base a half guard game off of the overhook got obliterated in seconds by Amazon Sugie. If you adjust your weight on someones overhook, you own them. That rule doesn't apply to underhooks. If you get an overhook from butterfly, yeah you can sweep, but you don't have near the body control and you have to be better at so many other things.

Sure an overhook is useful, but if you need to come to Sherdog to learn helpful hints, than you aren't ready to start using the overhook effectively IMO.

 

[lightw8]

Because a guy with decent experience will absolutely BLITZ an overhook faster than he would to an underhook. People like Mike Fowler who used to base a half guard game off of the overhook got obliterated in seconds by Amazon Sugie. If you adjust your weight on someones overhook, you own them. That rule doesn't apply to underhooks. If you get an overhook from butterfly, yeah you can sweep, but you don't have near the body control and you have to be better at so many other things.

Sure an overhook is useful, but if you need to come to Sherdog to learn helpful hints, than you aren't ready to start using the overhook effectively IMO.

at one point I started to overhook everytime- I think its from doing it with gi and grabbing the collar then I had to take a year off...the habit stuck. I also never was told the importance of the underhoook. Therefore, I'd always try to pass half and sitting guard habitually with an overhook and get swept a lot more than before and I coudn't figure out what was going on. Once I figured out again the virtue of the underhook (granted Im still learning the nuances), I fixed that problem. That's why I love threads like these....thanks guys.

 

[Neuro]

If you get an overhook from butterfly, yeah you can sweep, but you don't have near the body control and you have to be better at so many other things.

totally not sure if I'm right, but I certainly prefer one underhook and one overhook for butterfly guard. all my sweeps are based around that, and I would assume it's the same with most people.

it's an interesting discussion, regardless

 

[Shemhazai]

Because a guy with decent experience will absolutely BLITZ an overhook faster than he would to an underhook. People like Mike Fowler who used to base a half guard game off of the overhook got obliterated in seconds by Amazon Sugie. If you adjust your weight on someones overhook, you own them. That rule doesn't apply to underhooks. If you get an overhook from butterfly, yeah you can sweep, but you don't have near the body control and you have to be better at so many other things.

Sure an overhook is useful, but if you need to come to Sherdog to learn helpful hints, than you aren't ready to start using the overhook effectively IMO.

The way I see it (still from a humble novice's point of view), an overhook from the bottom is really only powerful if you have something to maintain the space between your hips and your opponent's, usually a butterfly hook or a foot/knee on the hip. Without such a buffer, which an underhook would also have served as, the opponent is free to control your hip movement to that side, which is never good.

 

[Calibur]

totally not sure if I'm right, but I certainly prefer one underhook and one overhook for butterfly guard. all my sweeps are based around that, and I would assume it's the same with most people.

it's an interesting discussion, regardless

You are thinking an under/over position, which is perfectly kosher. I'm talking more of an over/over position, which is doable, but not as good. Between double unders, under/overs and double overs, I would say double overs is the weakest, double unders is the safest, and under/overs gives you the most attacking options.

Just my opinion. BTW, the overhook you are talking about isn't really quiet an overhook. It's more just a block on the arm. The overhook is kind of going to go over the shoulder and through the armpit. Any lower and it's not really a good overhook. It's tough as hell to play butterfly guard with a good underhook and a good overhook at the same time. The body just can't really position itself that way.

 

[Neuro]

You are thinking an under/over position, which is perfectly kosher. I'm talking more of an over/over position, which is doable, but not as good. Between double unders, under/overs and double overs, I would say double overs is the weakest, double unders is the safest, and under/overs gives you the most attacking options.

Just my opinion. BTW, the overhook you are talking about isn't really quiet an overhook. It's more just a block on the arm. The overhook is kind of going to go over the shoulder and through the armpit. Any lower and it's not really a good overhook. It's tough as hell to play butterfly guard with a good underhook and a good overhook at the same time. The body just can't really position itself that way.

ahh, really well said. especially, the block on the arm explanation.

 

[biosize]

Two hands in: Good.
Two hand out: Good.
One hand in; one hand out: No Good.

LOOLL:icon_chee:icon_chee

 

[HomerPlata]

Sure an overhook is useful, but if you need to come to Sherdog to learn helpful hints, than you aren't ready to start using the overhook effectively IMO.

And the prize more most arrogant prick goes to...

 

[Calibur]

And the prize more most arrogant prick goes to...

Cheer up princess. I'm just saying that if you need people to tell you not to cross your feet when in backmount, and not to keep one hand in and one hand out to avoid triangle chokes, than you probably aren't ready to start using overhooks, which requires a lot more skill than using an underhook.