Werdum has submitted the two greatest HWs of all time

[yookfarb]

See my post above, there are too many politics when it comes to title shots, the guy with the belt isn't always the best, Brock wasn't and none of the HW champions in the UFC were during the Pride era.

Ever since the fall of Pride, the UFC champion has always been the consensus #1 fighter in their weight class with the exception of Fedor and the #1 p4p fighter has always been a UFC champion.

You say the guy with the belt isn't always the best, but Werdum has NEVER been the best in the world for a single day in his life. So what does it matter?

He's NEVER been the best in the world so how can we say he's one of the best of all time? It's lunacy.

 

[MusterX]

Does a belt really mean that much though? I mean Fedor never lost his Pride belt and then he lost to Werdum, beating Fedor is better than getting any belt.

To be in a discussion for greatest of all time but not be a champion that defends his championship many times....yea it means that much. Generally speaking GSP, Anderson, Fedor ar the 3 that get discussed when talking about GOATS and they won championsips.

How the fuck can you be a GOAT without championships?

 

[Killme]

Post prime Fedor got careless looking for the finish. If they had a grappling match I would give advantage to Fedor by being quicker. Armbar boom.

Fedor ALWAYS threw ground and pound from guard like that... ALWAYS, dont talk on his prime if you had not watched his prime.

 

[MiroHa]

True but he's never really been in a war, that means a lot.

What 5 HWs do you have ahead of him? I have Fedor and Big Nog ahead of him but I have a lot of trouble placing others above him.

True.

After Fedor and Nogueira I have Barnett, Cro Cop and Cain in no particular order.

 

[bryank]

Cain has already surpassed Nog.

 

[MCS]

Belts signify #1 status. If you're the consensus #1 without the belt(Shogun 2005 until Griffin loss), then it doesn't mean that much.

However, Werdum was never the consensus #1 Heavyweight in the world for a single day of his life and rightfully so considering he lost his next fight after Fedor.

There have been too many fighters in MMA history who have reigned as the undisputed #1 fighters for Werdum to even be CONSIDERED as an ATG let alone GOAT contender.

Coleman, Nog, Fedor, Werdum, Overeem, BF and now Cain have been the lineal titlists at HW. That means more than Brock beating Couture for the UFC belt, and Werdum has a solid resume on top off that.

I'd say the bigger issue is him having these losses between those good-to-great wins. He's fallen off the title talks 3 times: when he lost to Nog, then when he lost to AA and then when he lost to JDS. Those were significant stretches when he wasn't considered an immediate title contender.

 

[MusterX]

I don't really know what the definition of a submission artist is but Werdum has without a doubt the best ground game ever at MMA HW division.

Werdum has a SICK BJJ game. I don't deny it. Fedor is sitting over there with 16 submission wins though and that is hard to argue against. He doesn't just have a couple more subs than Werdum, he has 7 more.

 

[MiroHa]

Fedor ALWAYS threw ground and pound from guard like that... ALWAYS, dont talk on his prime if you had not watched his prime.

Fedor was already out of the triangle but he was careless and bumped to the cage wall while circling away and Werdum was able to lock the triangle back on. It wasn't because of the ground and pound that he was ultimately caught.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Ever since the fall of Pride, the UFC champion has always been the consensus #1 fighter in their weight class with the exception of Fedor and the #1 p4p fighter has always been a UFC champion.

You say the guy with the belt isn't always the best, but Werdum has NEVER been the best in the world for a single day in his life. So what does it matter?

He's NEVER been the best in the world so how can we say he's one of the best of all time? It's lunacy.

This is bullshit, there have been a few fighters in Pride and other organizations that were the p4p number 1 fighter in the world, I'm pretty sure Sakurai was when Anderson beat him. It's lunacy that Brock became the number 1 HW in the world because a then top 10 Werdum beat Fedor. It's also bullshit that Werdum's title shot was given to a guy that was 2-1. Werdum should have fought for the belt already in the UFC and since he beat Fedor who never lost his belt that should count for a lot.

He was the best in the world when he beat Fedor, when a guy who is ranked between 5-7 beats the number 1 guy he takes his spot it's how it's always worked but because Brock was so popular it didn't that time, that's what's crazy.

Brock was never the best fighter in the world.

 

[MiroHa]

Werdum has a SICK BJJ game. I don't deny it. Fedor is sitting over there with 16 submission wins though and that is hard to argue against. He doesn't just have a couple more subs than Werdum, he has 7 more.

To be fair Werdum has little over half of the fights that Fedor had.

 

[Joker Jiujitsu]

He submitted the two greatest heavyweights of all time, but you have to admit Nogueira didn't look like he belonged in there, and Fedor was in the midst of a decline. But hindsight is 20/20; still quality wins. But Werdum's also lost to JDS, Overeem, the first Nogueira fight, and several other opponents.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

To be in a discussion for greatest of all time but not be a champion that defends his championship many times....yea it means that much. Generally speaking GSP, Anderson, Fedor ar the 3 that get discussed when talking about GOATS and they won championsips.

How the fuck can you be a GOAT without championships?

We are talking about the HW division right? There hasn't ever really been a champ at HW that defended his belt much. Brock also got Werdum's title shot when he was 2-1, and also somehow took Werdum's number 1 ranking when Werdum beat Fedor, this is why I say championships don't mean a whole lot depending on the division, there are too much politics in who gets the title shot and they aren't based on merit. Brock didn't earn his title shot and he was never number 1.

If Fedor gave Werdum his Pride belt would that make you change your mind? He was the first person he lost to after getting the belt, it's the same damn thing really.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Werdum has a SICK BJJ game. I don't deny it. Fedor is sitting over there with 16 submission wins though and that is hard to argue against. He doesn't just have a couple more subs than Werdum, he has 7 more.

Fedor is a better submission artist than Werdum but Werdum has the best guard at HW ever and his overall ground game, especially on the bottom is the best or very close to it.

 

[yookfarb]

This is bullshit, there have been a few fighters in Pride and other organizations that were the p4p number 1 fighter in the world, I'm pretty sure Sakurai was when Anderson beat him. It's lunacy that Brock became the number 1 HW in the world because a then top 10 Werdum beat Fedor. It's also bullshit that Werdum's title shot was given to a guy that was 2-1. Werdum should have fought for the belt already in the UFC and since he beat Fedor who never lost his belt that should count for a lot.

He was the best in the world when he beat Fedor, when a guy who is ranked between 5-7 beats the number 1 guy he takes his spot it's how it's always worked but because Brock was so popular it didn't that time, that's what's crazy.

Brock was never the best fighter in the world.

I specifically said "ever since the fall of Pride", so I don't know what you're going on about.

and yeah, Brock probably never was the best in the world but neither was Werdum, neither had solid claims to #1. Fabricio beat an aging fighter in a fight that didn't have any significance and Brock was a one dimensional fighter with a paper belt... Neither one deserved to be #1, but somebody had to be so Brock was picked because at his belt meant something once he beat Mir.

but we're not comparing Werdum to Brock, we're comparing Werdum to guys like Anderson, GSP, Hughes, Jones, etc.

Guys who reigned as the #1 fighter in their weight division for YEARS

 

[MusterX]

To be fair Werdum has little over half of the fights that Fedor had.

Werdum is a sick practitioner of BJJ. I'll at least agree to that much but I still contend that Fedor's 16 subs as a heavy weight is really hard to argue against.

Also, I can't wait to see Cain Vs. Werdum, I think its going to be a ridiculously awesome fight.

 

[MusterX]

We are talking about the HW division right? There hasn't ever really been a champ at HW that defended his belt much. Brock also got Werdum's title shot when he was 2-1, and also somehow took Werdum's number 1 ranking when Werdum beat Fedor, this is why I say championships don't mean a whole lot depending on the division, there are too much politics in who gets the title shot and they aren't based on merit. Brock didn't earn his title shot and he was never number 1.

If Fedor gave Werdum his Pride belt would that make you change your mind? He was the first person he lost to after getting the belt, it's the same damn thing really.

Werdum is a bad ass, period. Its just that when you talk about greatest of all time I think you need championships to be in that discussion. The greats have belts and they defend belts and that is called a reign. How can you be the king without a reign? Now that is just my opinion.

If you want to say Werdum is a great fighter, then I agree, he is great, but he has had no reign.

 

[samoajoe]

LFMAO at the idiot who doesn't give multiple Sambo world champion with 16 submission victories on his record ANY chance of beating Werdum who is making his name by beating cans and submitting 100 years old Nog. People usually cry when they are butthurt but I guess we gotta admire your spirit.

news flash bud fedor lasted about 5 seconds on the ground last time before tapping out to the best hw grappler of all time. Fedors chances in a grappling contest with werdum are slim to none.

 

[JamesBJJ]

Werdum is a sick practitioner of BJJ. I'll at least agree to that much but I still contend that Fedor's 16 subs as a heavy weight is really hard to argue against.

And Travis Fulton's 151 submissions wins are even harder to argue against. He does not have only few submissions more than Fedor, but 135 submissions more!

Seriously, you can't be this stupid, you must be pulling our legs.

 

[MiroHa]

news flash bud fedor lasted about 5 seconds on the ground last time before tapping out to the best hw grappler of all time. Fedors chances in a grappling contest with werdum are slim to none.

There's no cage on the grappling mats.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Werdum is a bad ass, period. Its just that when you talk about greatest of all time I think you need championships to be in that discussion. The greats have belts and they defend belts and that is called a reign. How can you be the king without a reign? Now that is just my opinion.

If you want to say Werdum is a great fighter, then I agree, he is great, but he has had no reign.

I agree, Werdum isn't in the running for GOAT if we are talking all divisions but IMO that is a stupid concept as you can't really compare different divisions very well.

I was merely pointing out that Werdum has been screwed out of a title shot so how can that really be held against him and his win over Fedor is better than winning any belt, especially at HW where the belt doesn't mean as much.