weight lifting vs plyometrics for mma

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by flyingknee16, Dec 11, 2005.

  1. flyingknee16

    flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    Which ones would you say are best for getting in shape for MMA? I'm currently training in mostly submission grappling and although my technique is always improving and I'm constantly progressing well as a fighter, I feel like it's time to improve myself physically so that I will be able to better handle my opponents or keep my own...

    yesterday i went against a wrestler w/8 years of experience (vs my 2 years of bjj) who outweighed me by about 30 lbs, and although i did catch him once and he caught me once, i felt like if i had more strength or better explosiveness i would have been able to submit him more.

    i'm currently 6'0" and i weigh 165. i'm a skinny ass mofo. any input from you guys would be great. thanks.
     
  2. physicaltherapy

    physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    plyos are better

    I just came back from a seminar with these guys.

    http://intocombat.com/store/products.php?ProductID=58&SubCategoryID=

    search the site I think that they have some clips too. But in general you truly don't need to spend 50 trillion hours in a gym lifting weights. JC Santana made a point that most MMA matches are 3x5 min/1x10 1x5 (unless it's for the belt of course). Think of it as 15 to 20 minutes of non-stop action. Same goes for grappling matches. 5 minutes of non-stop action break then you fight the next guy. So literally you're looking at less than 30-45 minutes of action. You really shouldn't be training for than that time.

    When you're training. It should be hardcore and intense (JC has phases it's like 12 weeks, gradually building up in intensity). You need to train like you fight. In the one of his advanced circuits you're pretty much going all out with almost no rest. Think of how well you can dominate your opponent if you can even come close to that.

    You can make up your own weight too. They talked about developing functional grip strength for BJJ/Judo for the gi. Get a military duffelbag and fill it up with sand and squat it using various hand grips. Instead of a kettel ball, you can go to home depot and get a giant ass hammer for 15 bucks and swing that bad boy around with one hand (using your traditional gi throw motions Seio nage, Goshi, whatever, I do BJJ I don't know any of the traditional names). Don't hurt yourself though.
     
  3. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    Right, cause god forbid you be more conditioned than you need to be. In any event, you're almost right. The levels of certain hormones in your body conducive to muscle building drop after about an hour of weight lifting. I assume it's similar in other training as well.

    Sledge hammer GPP and sandbag training are fine and good, but I think there's a lot to be said for heavy weight training. Though the real answer to the original question is that both are beneficial. However, I would exclude including plyometrics into your training until you hit a wilks coefficient (a score based on bodyweight, bench, deadlift, and squat) of at least three hundred. Then you may want to look into more advanced methods to better your explosiveness. This primer will do two things: 1) teach you the basics of gym work (namely progress, techniques, and proper mentality), as well as strengthen tendons to prevent injury when you move onto more advanced methods.

    Grip strength grip strength grip strength. This is OFTEN overlooked. For a grappler I reccomend you invest in a sledge for levering and a couple blockweights for tossing. Making yourself a thick handled KB for swing-and-catches isn't such a bad Idea either. Sandbags will help your grip, as will beating a tire with a heavy sledge, but primarily they're both to strengthen different things (ability to handle odd sized objects and core conditioning, respectively).
     
  4. physicaltherapy

    physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    Hey man I got other life commitments. Time is important to me. If 30-45 minutes is all I need to get me better then that's all I'm spending. This is a hobby. I don't see Dana White or Sakakibara calling me anytime soon.
     
  5. physicaltherapy

    physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    Good point. I didn't even think about it from that perspective.

    I was thinking generally thinking that you can make plyos more sports specific. You can create movement patterns that mimic movements that you do for gi/nogi grappling such as arm drags, lunges with arm weights mimicking single/double legs, etc. Incorporating some neuromuscular/coordination/balance components to your strength training.

    A good strength base is important.
     
  6. LPF4

    LPF4 Blue Belt

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    Urban,
    Can you give me an idea as to what the wilks total score ranges are and what they mean?

    You stated don't start poly's until you hit a score of 300. I did a quick calculation for myself and I'm around a score of 340 and consider myself weak.

    What's the high end of a wilks score?

    Thanks.
     
  7. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    what do you squat bench and deadlift? a high end wilks score (for competitive powerlifters) is around 500+
     
  8. Nate Pringle

    Nate Pringle Yellow Belt

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    I think doing both are good but for different things. Weights will increase absolute and limit strength while plyo is explosive power and muscular endurance. I usually follow a training split that allows me to have a plyo day once a week and weights twice, followed the following week with two rounds of plyo and one of weights alternating. Ive found that this is great for my explosive power and muscle endurance and i also dont get as bulky as i do when i only lifting. hope this helps
     
  9. LPF4

    LPF4 Blue Belt

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    Squat 135, bench 215, deadlift 185 with a flabby bodyweight of 163 lbs. I'm 5'8".

    So in kilos I'm 73.92 which relates to a wilks factor of .72

    Total lifts*wilks = 385

    There was a thread a while back of people comparing their 3 lifts. I'm nowhere close.
     
  10. KOU In3

    KOU In3 Orange Belt

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    This might be a bit oversimplified but here's how I look at it.

    Weights = Building your strength and muscle base.

    Plyos = Making the muscle you already have more explosive.

    If you have enough time, you'll obviously want to incorporate both. Personally I've found that I can no longer take the time to devote three, four, and five hours to training every day. So something has to compromise.

    A high level athlete will benefit a lot from the exposiveness of plyos. For most people though, their strength levels are not as developed as they should be IMHO. If I had to pick one (and I did), I'd pick the weights. It's a matter of giving up the 5% edge of the plyos for the 30% absolute strength edge (yes I'm pulling the numbers out of my @ss).
     
  11. Urban

    Urban Savage Mystic

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    no no no... something has gone horribly wrong in your calculations. You need to convert everything to KG. so your bodyweight is around 74.09, your total is around 290.9 and your wilks coefficient is around 209.04

    when in doubt use a wilks calculator: http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/wilkscalc.htm
     
  12. LPF4

    LPF4 Blue Belt

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    Yep, I did make one huge mistake. Forgot to convert to kilos for my lifts.

    Thanks for the correction.
     
  13. Wild Dan Hibiki

    Wild Dan Hibiki Black Belt

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    remember to get a lot of rest when you're doing plyo's
     
  14. Valgarv

    Valgarv Guest

    I don't know about needing a coefficient of 300. I'd rather give up 50lbs on my lifts and go for speed and coordination.

    ...thinking about it as I type this I'm fully aware of the weakness in my legs and feel I need 100lbs to both my dead and squat (mainly squat) which would put me at a coefficient of 300. The 300 coefficient sounds like a pretty good measuring point. I'd recommend focusing on plyos 2 weeks prior to a fight, though.

    Being used to moving your own body weight around is very helpful.
     
  15. killer_kicks88

    killer_kicks88 Green Belt

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    i would have already stopped lifting 2 weeks prior to a fight
     
  16. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    He said his Wilk's was 340 and he considered himself weak, I was like, "Fuck this guy!"

    That should be a lifetime goal for me. A Wilk's of 400.
     
  17. MadDildo

    MadDildo Shame Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Oh, to the threadstarter, the result gains in Plyo's pale in comparison to simple MxS training until you reach a high level of strength; I guess it's argued in the field what this number should be, but that's the reason for the Wilk's score.

    Besides, you could probably stand to gain some weight.
     
  18. LPF4

    LPF4 Blue Belt

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    Madmick,
    I knew something wasn't right with my wilks score. Seeing what everyone else was posting and those that I work out with in the gym I know I'm not that strong.

    Seeing as that I made an error with the calculations, you're absolutely right a wilks score of 400 would be awesome.
     
  19. Chad Hamilton

    Chad Hamilton Amateur Fighter

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    Could the threadstarter incorporate both into his schedule?
     
  20. OpethDrums

    OpethDrums Banned Banned

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    haha you're pretty weak, short, and flabby. you should keep working at it
     

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