Weight cutting end of HW/LHW?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Charlestonboy, May 24, 2014.

  1. Charlestonboy

    Charlestonboy Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 1, 2014
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Charleston, Sc
    What happened to all the big guys?

    In LHW all we have is - Jones, Gus, Cormier, Evans, Anthony Johnson, Teixeira, and kinda Phil Davis. Everyone else is on losing streaks, is dropping to MW, or past their prime.

    HW we have Cain, dos Santos, Werdum, Browne and Miocic. Everyone else is unproven or has too many losses to ever get a titleshot.

    I think the problem is weight cutting is so popular now that all these big guys just dehydrate themselves to MW to get a size edge. Is weight cutting killing these once-stacked weight classes, or is it something else?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
  2. BLAGA DARU**

    BLAGA DARU** Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Scenes from the Past
    Possibly because many believe their title shot chances will improve if they drop.
     
  3. TheLuckiest

    TheLuckiest Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    6,726
    Likes Received:
    2,881
    Location:
    Podunk, Tennessee
    Saying that Werdum, JDS, and Cain are unproven is a bit silly.
     
  4. Roads55

    Roads55 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    1,494
    Location:
    up A mountain in Wales
    think he meant everyone else
     
  5. SuBStr1kR

    SuBStr1kR Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    30
    I think he meant to say that everyone else beside Werdum, JDS, Cain and ect are unproven.
     
  6. Cygnus-X

    Cygnus-X Red Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,753
    Likes Received:
    914
    If Jon Jones lost everyone would go nuts over how great the LHW division is, just like with MW when Anderson lost.
     
  7. MOJO Fire

    MOJO Fire Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    5,563
    Likes Received:
    0
    Look at America the only guys that weigh 240+ are fatties, very hard to find legit in shape HWs plus almost all of the current HWs could could to LHW if they wanted.
     
  8. FallonFoxGOAT

    FallonFoxGOAT Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    7,688
    Likes Received:
    74
    Location:
    The secret Eye Poke Army headquarters.
    And WW with GSP out of the picture.

    I remember back before Jones took the title when LHW was the most stacked division.

    Then Jones runs through the who's-who of title contenders, and on Sherdog it's now "it was never really that stacked at all."

    Strange how that works around these parts...
     
  9. Thom1010101

    Thom1010101 White Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    This. LHW is currently seen as weak because Jones has been on a tear, destroying everyone people previously viewed as greats.

    It was the same at MW with Anderson. WW never had that issue, partly because there were just more fighters, and partly because of the way GSP used to win - dominant, but rarely 'beating up' his opposition (excepting Koscheck's eye)
     
  10. edco76

    edco76 huh? Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    7,733
    Likes Received:
    381
    Is normal.

    There has pretty much always been about <10 good HWs and maybe 10-20 good LHW.

    Look around. Say 225 and over would be HW. Any less than that would cut to LHW.

    You just dont see many guys in good shape that bust 225. There are more but still not a lot that fall in the 205-225 range that would fight at LHW.

    You also have to take into account that those big guys, especially athletic ones get recruited early on to play other sports.
     
  11. Dman4Life8017

    Dman4Life8017 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Newark NJ
    I hate to break it to you guy, but ever since the advent of weight classes in combat sports, guys who are "bigger", who are on the outer fringes of a lower weight class, lose the weight to fit into that weight class so they'll have an advantage over smaller guys. This isn't some new phenomena.

    In MMA, damn near EVERYONE is fighting at a weight class, or two lower than their natural weight. For instance, 99% of the light heavyweight division weighs between 220-230lbs naturally when they aren't training for a fight. When they are training for a fight, they lose that weight over the course of 2 1/2 - 3 months through training, and dieting. By the week of a fight, those 220-230lb guys, are down to roughly 210, and end up cutting" the final few lbs to make weight. Very few guys who fight at LHW, such as Dan Henderson and Lyoto Machida who come in well under the 205lb limit[Dan at roughly 195 - 200, and Lyoto at roughly 200-203], which suggests their actual walk around weight is roughly 205-210lbs.

    What would really be the "death" of the HW & LHW division, is if an inbetween division were created such as Cruiserweight. Since a CW division would be roughly 220lbs, you'd have all the smaller heavyweights who can make 220 by shedding 10-20lbs, and all the "bigger" LHWs essentially fighting at their walk around weight or losing 5-10lbs by toning up. You'd essentially cannibalize two divisions to make up this inbetween division.
     
  12. DirtyLandry**

    DirtyLandry** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    NW Tennessee
    Yep

    Truth is we have a dominant champ at LHW and HW so the "perception" is the divisions are weak. The divisions are as stacked as ever, Jones and Cain are just dominant and make everybody else (except DC/ JDS) look like inferior talent. As mentioned earlier, see Silva/ MW div for years
     
  13. Hawkman3111

    Hawkman3111 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    May 14, 2014
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    0
    The best comment I have heard on this topic is that there are better opportunities available for large athletes willing to train as hard as MMA requires.

    Boxing, NFL, WWE come to mind. MMA doesnt seem to pay very well for the risks and saacrifices required.
     
  14. Charlestonboy

    Charlestonboy Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 1, 2014
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Charleston, Sc
    Some good points, but i dont think Jon Jones is the reason LHW is weak. Featherweight has very dominant champion but there are still 6 or so fighters worthy of fighting for the belt.

    Dan henderson is ranked number 6 and is still not going to be taken seriously as a title contender if Jones disappeared.
     
  15. giantveggie

    giantveggie Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    1,200
    Likes Received:
    1,362

    I have to think they are cutting more than 5lbs in the final days. 5/210 is like nothing - 2%. GSP was cutting 22 lbs. or 11%. If a LHW did the same percentage they would cut 25 pounds, coming down from 230 to 205.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/cagewriter/post/1628?urn=mma,wp1628
     
  16. Dman4Life8017

    Dman4Life8017 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Newark NJ
    You really need to look at what boxers make before making this statement. Just because you see guys like Floyd Mayweather, and Manny Pacquiao making huge amounts of money, doesn't mean that every boxer is raking it in.

    There are boxers who are champions barely making 5 figures per fight. There are tons of "journeyman" fighters out there barely making mid-4 figures per fight. There are tons of undefeated boxers out there not making any kind of real money. Hell, for the longest time, Bernard Hopkins was the longest reigning champion in Boxing, and his paydays didn't exceed 6 figures. It was only recently[5-6 years ago] did he regularly start making high 6 figures/low 7 figures per fight. In Boxing, it's more dependent on your promoter, and how they market you than actually winning fights.

    In MMA, since the promotion also acts as the promoter, the fate of the fighter, and promotion are linked. If a fighter does well consistently, and puts on exciting fights, it's in the promotion's best interest to put their marketing muscle behind that fighter, and thus, they make money off promoting that fighter. And when the promotion makes money off the fighter, the fighter in turn moves up the ladder and makes more money. It's the truest example of a symbiotic relationship in combat sports.
     
  17. Dman4Life8017

    Dman4Life8017 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Newark NJ
    People like GSP, and Rumble when he was attempting to fight at Welterweight were extreme cases of weight cutting. Most fighters weigh within 5-10lbs on that final week before the fight. So losing water weight is not an issue or that big of a stretch for them, or even dangerous.
     
  18. ManyJudgesGuess

    ManyJudgesGuess Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    1
    Annnnnnnnnnnd now, the NEEEEWWWW female heavy champion, Bertha, "BIG," BARTHALAMEWWWWWW

    The problem is that Heavyweights are separated athletes. A lot of guys who would be super weights miss out on UFC because there is no motivation for a 300lb guy unless you're like Brock Lesnar which, let's face it, was unhealthy at the end to cut so much.

    Then you got the Cain's, the Mirs, Nelsons, guys that are in the middle of the minimum and max of the Heavyweight limit because of what suits them best. I just saw Kongo (a beast) punish some dude which looked plainly out of shape. I'm sure he's in great shape; he's a mixed martial artist. But he looked like cat piss and that's why a lot of guys who are so good as Heavy weights are just in shape guys.

    And then those who are losing, or are friends with the champ (see Cain vs. Cormier), they are already at a close enough range to cut weight into LHW.

    Maybe if the UFC changed the weight limits things would get funky. Maybe they should just have Heavyweight be any weight, sort of like 209-909lb lol.

    UFC needs an OPENWEIGHT!!! + Soccer Kicks + Occasional rings or freak show fights.

    I'll get shit for saying that, but we all tuned in to see Couture joke on Toney.
    If there was a female division bigger than small, or fights which respected the individual's interest in 'Who is the best mixed martial artist' type of question, then there would be no ducking Vitor bro. It could just be Wanderlei vs. Cain :)
     
  19. Hawkman3111

    Hawkman3111 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    May 14, 2014
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    0
    And in return for that money the fighter has to train intensively for weeks at a time, go without food and water and take a very real risk of having a juiced up neanderthal pound his head into the mat repeatedly after hes been knocked unconscious. Most MMAers arent getting UFC money anyway, and even those that do have to pay the price during the good years of their life for very little money with smaller organizations. The real talented big guys HAVE better options.
     
  20. Dman4Life8017

    Dman4Life8017 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    18
    Location:
    Newark NJ
    That's the life of a fighter who is involved in combat sports. They choose this life. It's not as if they can't do anything else and be paid well for it. Keep in mind, that MMA is an expensive venture to get involved in. Even though there are the "top" gyms that are all encompassing in their training, at the bottom when you're just starting out, you may end up spending time at MULTIPLE gyms with many individualized coaches/trainers to train different disciplines. You have to go learn BJJ, then go learn boxing, or taekwando, or karate. It's not like boxing where you can go to a boxing gym and get into boxing.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.