Weight cut: MMA related

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Badger67, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    Wasn't sure where to put this specifically, if a MOD feels its better in another forum please direct it.

    http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/8/31/9218387/arkansas-california-commissions-leading-the-way-with-historic-new

    "Under the new rule, a fighter will weigh-in the day before the fight as usual and there will be second weigh-in the day of the fight. At the second weigh-in, if an athlete weighs more than 7.5 percent of his or her body weight from the previous day or more than the next weight class up, the bout will be called off."
     
  2. brendan raedy

    brendan raedy Blue Belt

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    I get what they are trying to do, but people are still going to cut weight. Maybe not as much, but enough to still be dangerous. I don't see any real solution other than mat/cage side weigh ins.
     
  3. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    If you're implying same day weigh ins by having that, more people will die like they did back in boxing due to severe dehydration and cerebral hemorrhaging being easier.
    I think what they're doing here is basically, probably 30-60 minutes before the fight fighters step on a scale and if they weigh more than 7.5% fight is scrapped. I have no issues with this.
    This basically means a 155er can't weigh more than 166 come fight night. It will definitely stop guys like GT etc. Especially if they also have an IV ban.
     
  4. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    As the other poster said, I still think fighters will cut.

    7.5% is still alot. Maybe my math's off, for a 155lb fighter 7.5% is 11-12lbs. Sounds like a normal cut to be honest.

    At amateur guys fighting on the same night would cut assuming they have 4h to re-hydrate, the problem is that they could fight within 2h; The idea that they have time is what inspires the weight cut.
     
  5. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    I'm not saying they wont.
    7.5% isn't a whole lot, it's rather normal. They are ensuring no more than this, though.

    If Someone decides to fight at 155, they can weigh as much as 166 come fight night, and indeed many 155ers do this. Guys like GT however, do not. And this will curb the larger guys. Not the ones who are more akin to their class.
     
  6. TheHereticJay

    TheHereticJay I scoff at your belt rankings

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    A 10 pound weight cut is nothing... You can lose that in about an hour of just working a good sweat after water loading a few days and cutting salts, then pack it right back on. Hell, my last fight I put back 8-9kg(15-17lbs) after my cut to 65kg and I'm very new to weight cutting, but it wasn't a hard cut at all...it came off easy and came back just as easy.

    I see what they're trying to do here, but either just make it same day weigh ins or don't bother. But if this gets implemented to the big leagues of MMA, then I see the addition of many new weightclasses. Also...boxing has weight classes every 4-8 pounds. So, they can only cut 4-8 pounds now?
     
  7. brendan raedy

    brendan raedy Blue Belt

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    I wonder. I think a lot of those guys cutting massive amounts of weight would seriously alter their behavior if they knew they had to fight immediately after weighing in. They would have to.

    In terms of health risks...I'd really like to see how that compares to current weight cutting procedures.
     
  8. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    They thought that with boxing too, and it didn't. They still kept cutting the same amount and suffering worse.

    Edit: I don't know though, maybe with the information that's out there they might not, but i highly doubt it. These are guys who do weird things to make weight, or guys like Rumble who drop from 215-170 in a month.

    Without hydrating IE same day weigh ins and fighting just a few hours later at most, quite drastic. Aside from the kidneys being overworked and potentially leading to failure over long term of this (and has happened with current weight cut procedures even in the UFC as one man had to retire because of it) and the body being dehydrated which makes electrolyte levels unbalanced, the Na/K channel doesn't work properly, so muscular contraction is at times delayed, slow neural recruitment as a result. Cardio/conditioning will be garbage so there will be less entertaining fights because of this also as the blood will be more viscous in the veins/arteries, if thats one direction anyone wants to go about.

    In addition, the effects of dehydration and being hit are magnified IE greater risk of concussion, post concussion syndrome, and cerebral hemorrhaging during hydrated effects.

    Same day weigh ins are a bad idea for guys at this level who will still cut because it isn't being punished by the commissions; only their body, which they aren't taking great care of with their cuts. This is why i tell all of my athletes i coach or train with to see a nephrologist and get a CT scan once every 1-2 years.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
  9. brendan raedy

    brendan raedy Blue Belt

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    Yeah, I don't mean to sound callous, but at a certain point, you aren't going to ever establish a set of rules and regulations that will prevent dumb or desperate people from doing things that are bad for their health.

    I have to think those guys are a minimum compared to those that would change tactics.

    Like I said, we have a handful of people that seem to die every year cutting weight. Is that simply easier to sweep under the rug than a fighter that dies as a result of trauma sustained in the ring? Because boxing has that, too.
     
  10. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    No, but we can minimize it as much as possible at least.

    It's not too minimal really, guys are already pissed they can't rehydrate with the IV. Now if other AC's went in this same direction, they will be even more pissed. Most guys probably cut between 9-11% BW in water. Yes, that additional 1.5-3.5% makes a huge difference in many weight classes, probably not so much in HW.

    It's one thing to have a few randoms die from cutting weight or trauma from mis matched.
    Adding the two together at the same time is negligence on both an AC and the athlete and his coach if they allow same day weigh ins and a drastic cut which many will do as they did years ago.
     
  11. brendan raedy

    brendan raedy Blue Belt

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    At least in boxing I have a hard time taking their care for athletes seriously when a standing 8 count still exists, with all we now know about concussions and brain injury.

    Have MMA do hour before weigh ins (or morning of, or something in between) and a hydration test is done at the same time. If you are below a certain level of hydration, you aren't allowed to fight.

    Now obviously, losing the weigh in event, cancelled fights, etc are terrible for business. So at a certain point I find it really hard to believe that these organizations are not willing to sacrifice a certain level of athlete health for monetary gain, beyond the damage suffered in the ring.
     
  12. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    Yeah, and that definitely added to the effects.

    Testing hydration levels is difficult and not feasible for the commission, they can really only test for weight gained, which is what they are doing.

    You'd be surprised how dumb athletes can be at times. And most org's don't care what their athletes do, they just do what the commission dictates they can do.
     
  13. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    I like what Sam stout and KJ noons did. They willingly fought at their walkaround weight basically (probably just dropped 2-5lbs). More fighters should do this. They'd have more stamina and power, and wouldn't damage their kidneys or brain as much.
     
  14. brendan raedy

    brendan raedy Blue Belt

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    Not to sound naive but then we need to reexamine the commissions and their regulations.

    I think organizations have an obligation to educate their athletes, but at a certain point these are all adults and if they are dumb, they will just have to deal with the consequences of their actions. I'm not saying let fighters who are in mortal danger step in the cage, but athletes are going to find ways to do dangerous things if they are so inclined. No rule system is going to be perfect.
     
  15. Badger67

    Badger67 Taxidea taxus

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    Perfection is always impossible, we can still minimize things as much as possible.
    Commissions aren't terrible, they have gotten much better with how they handle IV rehydration, steroids etc. They are doing a decent job at ensuring guys aren't being unnecessarily hurt, especially with motions like these.
     
  16. mrwhizzer

    mrwhizzer White Belt

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  17. Ninjamurf

    Ninjamurf Handing out lollipops for over 3 decades

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    Anyone who thinks we can't go back to "day of" weigh in's is ignoring 100 years of history. Boxing had "day of" weigh in's from the beginning...and nobody died because of it. "Day before" weigh ins weren't implemented due to safety concerns at all. The "day before" weigh in phenomena is "relatively" recent. Started with Ali and big televised bouts back in the late 60's early 70's when promoters said, "hey, let's square these guys off the day before the event. Let them talk some smack, hype the fight, put it on TV and more people will watch." Even then it took a decade or so before fighters became savvy enough to think about cutting ANY weight let alone the massive amounts we see now.

    It's only with the recent advances in sport science, nutrition, and physiology, and people like Billy Rush and Mike Dolce, that you have these ridiculous weight cuts today. Let's look at an example. Back when GSP fought Matt Hughes the second time they both weighed in at 170 the day before...yet they both walked into the Octagon at 190+. So, not only did neither of them qualify to win the belt in the weight class they were fighting in, they didn't qualify for the weight class ABOVE theirs. Does that seem right? Just because "they can" given the current system?

    If you fight in a "weight class" you should be guaranteed that your opponent is IN that weight class during the fight, not some arbitrary point before the fight. If "safety" is the concern, why just a day before? Why not 2 days before? Why not a week before? Why can't I fight in the 170 class, that's what I weighed in high school? There is nothing magic about "one day" before the fight except that it gives promoters the opportunity to hype the fight with a press conference or weigh in event. Fighters CHOOSE to cut weight because they CAN under the current system (and, in fact, the current systems almost forces you to cut just to be competitive.) Eliminate the time to "recuperate" and they won't put their bodies into a position that it NEEDS to recuperate. Source? 100 years of boxing...and almost every BJJ tournament I've been too.

    (And before you all scream how people still do it in BJJ tournies, 1) only the dumb ones do it to the point that it hurts their performance and 2) there is a difference between dieting, getting in shape, and dropping a few pounds and the massive weight cuts we are discussing here.)
     

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