We should be concerned about our sport.

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Yeska805, Jun 6, 2014.

  1. Yeska805

    Yeska805 White Belt

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    http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/13276


    Here is an article in which a renowned wrestling writer states,

    "If you want to see what grappling can become without a good rules and referees commission take a peek into the rapidly declining action in sport jiu-jitsu. What was once a submission-first sport for exceedingly tough humans has morphed into an unwatchable ten minutes of pajama-pulling.

    Two of the sport's very best practitioners -- Buchecha and Keenan Cornelius -- met last weekend in the semifinals of a world-level tournament. The "fight," as it is called in jiu-jitsu, lasted 10 minutes but produced almost no discernible point-scoring action, much less open-action that casual fans could find entertaining. "........
    "We're talking about two guys who, if properly incentivized by the rules, could perform acts of physical skill and flexibility you'd find incredible. However, in a sport with no independent referee commission, a 10-minute clock and little rules creativity we instead get two guys panting hard and tugging on each other's gis. "


    Fila is working really hard to tweak and fix it's rules and what not.. should the ibjjf follow the leader? Should we encourage the ibjjf to be progressive
     
  2. OoopsaDaisey

    OoopsaDaisey Black Belt in DEEP Megaton

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    If people want the rules changed, they should change the rules. Either start a new tournament, or gather all the top BJJ players together and create a petition to change the IBJJF rules.

    Peoples biggest issue seems to be with the new era of BJJ not transferring well to MMA ror self-defense. But, I think this will just lead to elite BJJ gyms like Nova Uniao focusing on MMA styled BJJ instead of sport BJJ. It's really not a big deal.
     
  3. tap21

    tap21 Green Belt

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    There is a simple answer to this problem: 100% no-gi.

    Join us!!!!
     
  4. magick

    magick Green Belt

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    Wouldn't that be wrestling with different rules?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
  5. Os3y3ris

    Os3y3ris Green Belt

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    They need to drop the ban on certain schools for entering. It's getting stale and fresh blood is needed.
     
  6. 400lbKneeOnFace

    400lbKneeOnFace Orange Belt

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    no gi sub only
     
  7. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    Submission wrestling essentially
     
  8. GracieMMABarra

    GracieMMABarra Word.

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    I know he's specifically talking about one match but I feel like Buchecha should get a pass as he is a madman most of the time. Even the action in that match was most he hulking up. Rodolfo match was slow as well but they don't Mendes/Cobrinha themselves much.
     
  9. armtriangle

    armtriangle Brown Belt

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    dude wrestling is just as bad to watch sometimes. When 2 guys are very good, it is hard to score. That's just how it is. Watch Karelin vs. Rulon... literally not one thinig happened in that match. There are tons of matches like this. Grappling is boring to watch. Trying to make spectator friendly just ruins it.
     
  10. dokomoy

    dokomoy Green Belt

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    Why exactly am I supposed to care about what a wrestling writer thinks about jiu jitsu?
     
  11. dokomoy

    dokomoy Green Belt

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    I totally agree with this and the same is true of Judo. Good grappling is and always has been about control and as long as that's the case you're going to have some boring matches no matter what.
     
  12. n8pee

    n8pee Yellow Belt

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    This recent Mundials made me SO happy I train 100% no gi now.

    I've been training BJJ for more than eight years, and am a two stripe purple belt with the gi.

    Since I've moved to San Francisco I now train 100% no gi with Denny Prokopos. I could not be happier.

    I was always turned off by gi-specific moves and to now see how they have grown in complexity over the last few years has really pushed me further from the Gi. Old school gi matches were much more intense than today's games.

    I could go on and on but realize I am sounding like a grumpy old man.
     
  13. TangoMF

    TangoMF Blue Belt

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    Using "pajama-pulling" as a pejorative when discussing gi jiu jitsu kinda kills his argument. It's like criticizing wrestling for being "sweaty man-hugging" - it doesn't add any substance.

    Galvao's barely-legible facebook post on the current state of referring in jiu jitsu is a better place to start if you want an interesting look at the current issues facing the sport.
     
  14. FlexLuthor

    FlexLuthor Blue Belt

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    I would disagree.

    "Pajama pulling" is (imo) used by the author to describe the style of bjj the guys are displaying, not bjj itself. He's clearly a bjj fan.
     
  15. cjd

    cjd Blue Belt

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    I've rolled with Tim (T.R. Foley). He is a good purple belt (and former all-american wrestler) who trains in the gi frequently. If you read his column, he frequently mentions BJJ ppl and encourages ex wrestlers to get involved with jiu jitsu.
     
  16. tap21

    tap21 Green Belt

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    I think you are part of a growing trend. More and more gi grapplers are crossing over to join us on the dark side every day.

    NG4L!
     
  17. FlexLuthor

    FlexLuthor Blue Belt

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    Because current bjj players don't grow the sport, new bjj players do. You and I are already in. We pay our gym fees and buy streams and merchandise... But we are already inundated. We will watch that boring footsie shit regsrdless, just to learn.

    If you want to grow a sport, you need spectators. Period. The biggest and best paying sports in the world have massive, inordinate amounts of fans that dont actually do the sport. These people buy tickets, ppvs, merchandise and hopefully new gym memberships.

    If bjj gets to esoteric and boring, it will remain a very niche sport that's extremely hard to make a living at.
     
  18. razor840

    razor840 White Belt

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    It just seems like if that was the case, more strictly no-gi guys would be winning ADCC. People who train 'old school' would be winning big submission only tournaments, etc. But it seems like the same group of guys are winning everything submission grappling related. Miyao, Keenan, Rafa, Cobrinah, they all placed at ADCC last year, which means their nogi can't be that bad. Keenan took Bronze in the absolute. Cyborg won the absolute and his game, it could be argued, is pretty sport specific.
     
  19. TonyRo

    TonyRo White Belt

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    I think the problem is not in the positions and style of Jiu-Jitsu, but in the mentality of the fighters themselves. Yes, there are positions that likely restrict movement and action more than others, e.g. some Lapel Guards, 50/50, Double Guard Pull, Closed Guard, etc...but the real problem is that there's HUGE incentives for the fighter who's ahead to seek out these positions and enter them to secure the win. I'm not sure I'd do any differently if I was in that spot either - there's simply way too much on the line and way too much time invested. Obvious examples from this year include Rafa vs. Cobrinha, JT Torres vs. Michael Langhi, and Mario Reis vs some other dude. Up an advantage or two? Sit in 50/50 or the Closed Guard for minutes on end.

    It's not easy to score points against these guys either - the same thing occurs in master level chess tournaments. The advantage of White moving first is typically not large enough to really mean much, and modern grandmaster level players are simply too well prepared to lose many games. Probably 50% or more of their games are draws. Chess isn't a great spectator sport either, but that doesn't stop millions from playing every day, and it doesn't make it a bad game.

    There have to be options for rule changes a la the new double guard pull rule (I'm not saying this was a blatant success story either) to encourage more action. The simplest rule is restarts after some time in a stagnant position at a ref's discretion. This is used in MMA all the time. It's not perfect, but it beats 4 minutes of 50/50 or Closed Guard.

    And let's not pretend that no-gi is the answer. Without grips and with sweat, high level matches can take a ton of time to even hit the ground. It ends up being really boring wrestling matches. I've seen basically all of the Metamoris superfights, and I'd rank most if not all of the no-gi in the bottom half as far as enjoyment goes.
     
  20. German Supplex

    German Supplex Orange Belt

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    Turns into WWE. Those dudes make a lot of money. :redface:

    Wrestling isn't just Jiu Jitsu without a gi and diff. rules lol. Wrestling is way different and you can discern the style just by looking at it at first glance.
     

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