Wasted talents

My go to with this question is Hector "Macho" Camacho and I always say "and many others" because there have been many, some who I've never seen fight at all. I can't even remember the name of a guy who was compared to camacho who got caught with a tranny and killed by his girlfriend or wife, but he was said to be an awesome fighter, i think i saw some footage on you tube. Anyway, Hector's then ex-manager was telling everyone he'd end up like that, i guess he was right but it took a few more decades. Then we have tragedies like Salvador Sanchez, Marcel Cerdan, guys who were just suddenly gone without a long, full career. Then we have guys who have talent but just don't like the sport like John Meekins who inspite of high expectations never rose to any level of greatness.

But Hector is the patron saint of unfulfilled talent in my mind, anyone that has been on these forums for any amount of time know how I feel about Camacho. Underrated power, stellar defense, solid fundamentals, and the fastest hands, feet and body ever. Granite chin, inhuman mental toughness. He should have been on the short list of ATG's but couldn't get away from the fast life.

I don't know. Chavez look to be LEVELS above him and Chavez when they fought. I know that Hector had Great Gifts buy his knowage seem limited to them. Kinda like Roy Jones. Once they go, you go with them if you can't adjust like MAB.
 
I don't know. Chavez look to be LEVELS above him and Chavez when they fought. I know that Hector had Great Gifts buy his knowage seem limited to them. Kinda like Roy Jones. Once they go, you go with them if you can't adjust like MAB.
macho was shot by then, still good enough to beat clubfighters and fringe contenders but he never beat a good fighter after the Vinny Pazienza fights and he stopped improving after the Ramirez fight, a good 6 years or so before the chavez fight. At the very least, he should have been able to split a trilogy with chavez, at the very least. Chavez had nightmares against movers and slick boxers, Taylor basically gave away the fight, Whitaker really beat him, Camacho, without all the dissipation and rust of inactivity could have taken him. By '90, macho could hardly even beat Haugen, a good fighter but not in his league, talentwise, as were not, mancini and Pazienza. None of them should have been competitive with him. Just the fact that the uber limited mancini lost a controversial decision to Macho tells you everything you need to know about his decline as a serious fighter by that point.
 
macho was shot by then, still good enough to beat clubfighters and fringe contenders but he never beat a good fighter after the Vinny Pazienza fights and he stopped improving after the Ramirez fight, a good 6 years or so before the chavez fight. At the very least, he should have been able to split a trilogy with chavez, at the very least. Chavez had nightmares against movers and slick boxers, Taylor basically gave away the fight, Whitaker really beat him, Camacho, without all the dissipation and rust of inactivity could have taken him. By '90, macho could hardly even beat Haugen, a good fighter but not in his league, talentwise, as were not, mancini and Pazienza. None of them should have been competitive with him. Just the fact that the uber limited mancini lost a controversial decision to Macho tells you everything you need to know about his decline as a serious fighter by that point.


That is kinda what I mean. Could he really ever improve. Once people starting seeing he was nothing but speed and was able to be timed, he couldn't adjust and relay on boxing IQ. He natural gifts were being beat and he couldn't do anything. He could get more speed or power.
 
That is kinda what I mean. Could he really ever improve. Once people starting seeing he was nothing but speed and was able to be timed, he couldn't adjust and relay on boxing IQ. He natural gifts were being beat and he couldn't do anything. He could get more speed or power.
the first time I saw him, I didn't know it but now,,,,with all the years i've been watching, he was fighting like a veteran in his first nationally televised fight against Louis Loy, As a kid, the speed, the antics were impressive but with all the years of hindsight, it's the intuition, the seeming to have been "born knowing" things that take years to master. He was improving with a couple detours between the first time I saw him and the ramirez fight. After that, the rosario fight was the beginning of a long, slow decline where he just really didn't fight much and when he did he didn't look that good. He arguably lost to Reyes Cruz in the late 80's, and probably would have had he not been the star that he was. but all the way between the fights Loy-Ramirez he was doing things and improving. And he wasn't anything like Roy Jones, Roy broke a lot of rules as a boxer, Hector was technically very sound unlike most slick boxers of the post-Ali era. Even in the chavez fight he showed great intangibles, intelligence and survival wit, take a look at the ninth round of that fight, he had no business making it out of that round, none, yet, he pulled some moves and when he looked to be done, he dug down and maybe even won the round. Problem is, boxing is a lot more than skill and the physical aspects, Macho just was not a serious fighter by that point, still proud enough to take that enormous beating but not serious enough to have been fighting regularly all the time. Chavez was fighting everyone, bums included and looking mediocre agianst many of them but he was staying in supreme condition and getting the most out of his limit skills while maximizing the things that allowed him to catch up to more talented fighters like his heavy hands. Actually, same thing happened to chavez once he started dabbling with cocaine, he started looking ordinary too, you can't do that stuff and not have it ruin you, the only fighter I can think of who was a major cokehead and still a pfp top fighter is Pernell Whitaker, everyone else has shortened their careers and lost fights they were supposed to win.
 
the first time I saw him, I didn't know it but now,,,,with all the years i've been watching, he was fighting like a veteran in his first nationally televised fight against Louis Loy, As a kid, the speed, the antics were impressive but with all the years of hindsight, it's the intuition, the seeming to have been "born knowing" things that take years to master. He was improving with a couple detours between the first time I saw him and the ramirez fight. After that, the rosario fight was the beginning of a long, slow decline where he just really didn't fight much and when he did he didn't look that good. He arguably lost to Reyes Cruz in the late 80's, and probably would have had he not been the star that he was. but all the way between the fights Loy-Ramirez he was doing things and improving. And he wasn't anything like Roy Jones, Roy broke a lot of rules as a boxer, Hector was technically very sound unlike most slick boxers of the post-Ali era. Even in the chavez fight he showed great intangibles, intelligence and survival wit, take a look at the ninth round of that fight, he had no business making it out of that round, none, yet, he pulled some moves and when he looked to be done, he dug down and maybe even won the round. Problem is, boxing is a lot more than skill and the physical aspects, Macho just was not a serious fighter by that point, still proud enough to take that enormous beating but not serious enough to have been fighting regularly all the time. Chavez was fighting everyone, bums included and looking mediocre agianst many of them but he was staying in supreme condition and getting the most out of his limit skills while maximizing the things that allowed him to catch up to more talented fighters like his heavy hands. Actually, same thing happened to chavez once he started dabbling with cocaine, he started looking ordinary too, you can't do that stuff and not have it ruin you, the only fighter I can think of who was a major cokehead and still a pfp top fighter is Pernell Whitaker, everyone else has shortened their careers and lost fights they were supposed to win.

Sugar Ray Leonard.


But I see what you are seeing in Hector and have heard you talk about being a big fan of his but I hear you what you are saying. I just think he reach his limits. Like Shawnbay Mitchell. Mitchell reminded me alot of Hector. Speed, Flash and Reach but had a celling and hit.
 
and sure, sometimes i wonder if I've been had, but i wonder that about Tyson and Roy Jones too, even Ali sometimes seems overrated, it's a basic sport really with a set amount of tools and solutions. Overall, i don't think so, I think Camacho was the complete package in potential. Tyson was quite a package too, but he stopped improving even sooner than Camacho.
 
Sugar Ray Leonard.


But I see what you are seeing in Hector and have heard you talk about being a big fan of his but I hear you what you are saying. I just think he reach his limits. Like Shawnbay Mitchell. Mitchell reminded me alot of Hector. Speed, Flash and Reach but had a celling and hit.
What a bout Ray? Sure he was a great fighter, I think people really do forget how great he was. If you're talking cocaine? I guess, his career was so short and erratic though, I don't know. I think he has said that he was a major cokehead by the time he was a star but like Macho? Who was so consumed by drugs that it was an open secret and he was giving insane interviews? No, i really don't think ray's problem was that bad, Ray says that his problem had really gotten bad when he retired. Even hagler was said to have had problems with coke but he never seemed anything like Whitaker and Macho either, both of whom would have problems for the remainder of their careers and lives with drugs.
 
What a bout Ray? Sure he was a great fighter, I think people really do forget how great he was. If you're talking cocaine? I guess, his career was so short and erratic though, I don't know. I think he has said that he was a major cokehead by the time he was a star but like Macho? Who was so consumed by drugs that it was an open secret and he was giving insane interviews? No, i really don't think ray's problem was that bad, Ray says that his problem had really gotten bad when he retired. Even hagler was said to have had problems with coke but he never seemed anything like Whitaker and Macho either, both of whom would have problems for the remainder of their careers and lives with drugs.


Yeah I meant Ray had a decent career even with his drug use.


BUT if when talking about fighters that put out a great career even with everyone knowing about their shit. Being in Albuquerque right now, I got to say Johnny Tapia. He was a Great Fighter while fucking up his life out the ring and was given a Commerety job on Showtime. His demons where in the open.
 
And while we are on Wasted Talent and how Drugs could do that to people. Here Mcall

 
As far as coke, by and large, it is usually the end of a fighters career at the top, it's the reason I am still waiting for Tyson Fury to relapse. Not that I'm wishing anything bad on him but I've seen it too many times before, and i've heard it many times before, it's never true. the "I had some personal problems but now that's behind me" it's the same line Michael Dokes, Hector, Pinklon Thomas, etc.., etc.., I hope Fury stays clean but in all my years, once someone has a problem with that shit, it never really goes away, not completely. I'm still wondering if Pernell Whitaker was high when he got killed, Hector cleaned up many times and relapsed many times finally ending up dead over some other idiots drug deal with coke not far from his person. I'm kinda hardline about drugs and alcohol, even though there's always hope, i tend to write people off when i see a problem like that, seen it too many times. Sometimes people age out of problems like that but most of the time it's only after they've hurt a lot of people.
 
Paul Spadafora
He is like 49-1-1 his lone loss came at the end of his career when he was abusing drugs
He used to call out Mayweather and there is actually footage of him beating the shit out of him in the ring, knocking mayweather down and making him quit while mayweather was using him to train for a fight
He is the poster boy for wasted talent imo
 
And while we are on Wasted Talent and how Drugs could do that to people. Here Mcall


ya, crack, the story goes he was in some dopehouse right before that fight. Being as far away as we are, it's hard to know how big a problem they have and rumours are always there. Even Ali was rumored to be on Heroin at one point because of his lethargy. Sometimes i think people exaggerate the amount of drugs they used, i think tyson may have at some points. One of my music heroes, Little Richard claims outlandish drug use and he claims to have stopped overnight, maybe he did, he certainly was that strong as a person but i think he may have exaggerated just to make a better story for himself, just as guys like Malcolm X did when they found religion.
 
Ricky Hatton went and Floyd and Pac and lost but he a problem outside the ring that might have effect his game fast.


JuanMa too maybe. Don't know other than him letting himself go between FIGHT.


And Ruiz too if he don't get his shit together
 
Yeah I meant Ray had a decent career even with his drug use.


BUT if when talking about fighters that put out a great career even with everyone knowing about their shit. Being in Albuquerque right now, I got to say Johnny Tapia. He was a Great Fighter while fucking up his life out the ring and was given a Commerety job on Showtime. His demons where in the open.
i don't ever remember hearing anything about tapia without hearing about some drama, great guy, loveable, great fighter but another hopeless case. He's definitely amazing for having the career he had, hell, he fought not all that long before his heart stopped working, crazy but true, he had no drugs in his system when he died. it's more than about what the drugs do when they are in you and the wear and tear they put on your organs. Camacho had uneven performances in his early years and it's obvious which ones he came in with drugs hurting his performance, the fight with cubanito perez, where he gassed badly, whereas before he could fight his ass off and not even breath hard afterwards. Some had actually written Macho off by the time he fought Ramirez, he proved them all wrong with a shutout performance and after the Rosario fight, the faithful would gradually jump ship for many years. Some people still thinking he could beat chavez (myself, alex wallau) and some people even thinking he could beat Trinidad, (bobby cyzz), but by that point, the damage was done. Still a good fighter but not able to maintain any kind of pace that would win him a fight against a champion. Delahoya was the real last payday of his career, and DLH fucked half his career up with drugs too.

It really is hard to even say how much is drugs and how much is age and disinterest though. DLH seemed to just lose his fire by the time of the Trinidad fight, the same way Macho did. Hunger is one of the most important things in the sport and success is sometimes the biggest antidote for hunger, which is the topic. Tyson, in many ways, still looks better to me as an espn fighter then he ever would again, even though that's not completely true, he gained important experience afterwards but he also strayed from his hard learned skills.
 
the first time I saw him, I didn't know it but now,,,,with all the years i've been watching, he was fighting like a veteran in his first nationally televised fight against Louis Loy, As a kid, the speed, the antics were impressive but with all the years of hindsight, it's the intuition, the seeming to have been "born knowing" things that take years to master. He was improving with a couple detours between the first time I saw him and the ramirez fight. After that, the rosario fight was the beginning of a long, slow decline where he just really didn't fight much and when he did he didn't look that good. He arguably lost to Reyes Cruz in the late 80's, and probably would have had he not been the star that he was. but all the way between the fights Loy-Ramirez he was doing things and improving. And he wasn't anything like Roy Jones, Roy broke a lot of rules as a boxer, Hector was technically very sound unlike most slick boxers of the post-Ali era. Even in the chavez fight he showed great intangibles, intelligence and survival wit, take a look at the ninth round of that fight, he had no business making it out of that round, none, yet, he pulled some moves and when he looked to be done, he dug down and maybe even won the round. Problem is, boxing is a lot more than skill and the physical aspects, Macho just was not a serious fighter by that point, still proud enough to take that enormous beating but not serious enough to have been fighting regularly all the time. Chavez was fighting everyone, bums included and looking mediocre agianst many of them but he was staying in supreme condition and getting the most out of his limit skills while maximizing the things that allowed him to catch up to more talented fighters like his heavy hands. Actually, same thing happened to chavez once he started dabbling with cocaine, he started looking ordinary too, you can't do that stuff and not have it ruin you, the only fighter I can think of who was a major cokehead and still a pfp top fighter is Pernell Whitaker, everyone else has shortened their careers and lost fights they were supposed to win.

What evidence do you have that Whitaker was a cokehead during his prime?
 
I found the name i was mentioning earlier, Tyrone Everett, anyone here know about him? he was before I got really interested in the sport but that's who Camacho was compared to.
 
What evidence do you have that Whitaker was a cokehead during his prime?
evidence? the same i have for camacho or Tyson, none, only going by what's generally been accepted and covered over the years. I never met any of these guys let alone given them any tests.
 
Bert Cooper was a waste, thats for sure.

A short, aggressive hw in the Frazier/Tyson style but had freakishly long arms. Was a testicle hair short of taking Holyfeld's unified title in the latter's hometown.

But, he also loved smoking crack.
 
I think I am going to go with Prince Haseem. That guy had power in spades. People overplay how Berrera beat him. He lost but it wasn't like he was getting smoked. He just never got anything going and this is a few fights after he quit training properly. Sort of like how Tyson was not training properly for a few fights going into the match with Buster Douglas. Haseem wasn't done. I just think his heart was no longer in boxing. That and his hands were complete shit.
 
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